Nelson Piquet junior

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How do you rate Nelsiño?

He's top notch! Just give him the time...
3
4%
He's worth his seat.
9
11%
Not good enough.
24
29%
Get rid of him!
22
26%
Too early to judge.
26
31%
 
Total votes: 84

Scotracer
Scotracer
3
Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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So two days at Monaco and 3 mistakes (On thursday he binned it at St Devote and today messed up Portier and St Devote again!) on a track he has raced on before. How long before Flavio sends him home with a letter to his parents explaining him being sent home? He's been a bad boy!

C'mon Sato, you deserve it.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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vyselegend wrote:I think Miguel rise a very relevant point also, about the tightness of the mid-field group compared to last year. This year being behind the top three means you're fighting hard with Williams, Red Bull, Toyota and Honda! While in 2007 Honda was absolutely nowhere, Toyota wasn't that good, and Red Bull so unreliable that they barely finished half of the races! That makes a difference...
I agree with Miguel and you, this year is though.
vyselegend wrote:Last point, the 5 races count can be see on the two opposite views (like the half-filled or half-empty glass thing). Sure it's five already, but remember we suffered YEARS of underperforming Ralph and Fisi, and all of you weren't harsher with 'em than you are with Piquet...
No, lots of us were hard with Fisi and specially with Ralph. Me included, with both.

Beyond mine and the people opinion about Nelsinho, F1 team managers gives a rats *ss about the "Its too early to judge" option. They are under the big pressure of manufacturers who want results.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Miguel
Miguel
2
Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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Hello again,

I'd like to say first that, IMHO, Ralf lost his F1 speed in Indy 2004. He's had a few days of brilliance since them, but nothing like before. He may not be the best driver we've seen, but on williams he did have some races in the league of his brother. Unfortunately for everybody, those days rest behind a SAFER wall.

But let's go back to Piquet. He's again out in Q1 but to be fair to him, his lap was 0.3s slower than Fernando's. You may point out that Fernando's second attempt was probably blocked by a FI car. Anyway, first Q2 lap by fernando was 16.4, not a whole world of difference either. However, some drivers can produce magic when they need it, and Alonso did it in Q2 with that 15.8 (in Q3 by 80 thousandths) and DC helped him with (yet another) rear suspension failure.

Anyway, I will play devil's advocate and say that Monaco isn't the place to judge Nelsinho. Remember that last year Heikki was also miles from Fisi in monaco too. And I consider Heikki a top notch driver. EDIT:[(i] And this year he's giving Lewis a run for his money.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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Mr Alcatraz
-27
Joined: 18 May 2008, 15:10
Location: San Diego Ca. USA

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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It seems like just yesterday that there were certain members of The Anglo-Mafia that were saying
(not here) that Jr was going to challenge Fred ala Hamilton! :roll: :-({|= :lol:
Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand

donskar
donskar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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Let's give him until the end of the year.

Renault is not frivolous, rather they are VERY results-driven, thanks to Carlos Ghosn. I can't believe they would have signed him merely because of his name recognition, or because Alonso wanted a slow teammate. I think we have to assume Renault management saw at least some real potential.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Miguel
Miguel
2
Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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I agree with donskar on this one. First and foremost, because I think that sacking Piquet will do more harm than good to Renault.

Anyway, in the first GP2 year, Piquet was reckless, and nowhere as fast as either Heikki and Nico. But on his second year, he settled a lot, and was pretty fast. I mean, he wasn't "tarzan's mother", but he showed a very good improvement. Last year's testing must have given Symonds et al. a clue on how fast and good Piquet really was. And I don't think Sato is better than Piquet.

It's likely that, given last year's Hamilton-Alonso debacle, Piquet expected to wipe the floor with Fernando (if Lewis can do it, so can I). However, he's in a car that's tougher than the MP4/22, and in a position where half the time gap means twice the positions lost... and without aids. The first tests really opened Piquet's eyes on how good Fernando was (comment by Piquet: "I'm getting closer"). And indeed, having access to his teammate's telemetries have really helped him (especially in Barcelona). But this hasn't reflected on any other GP than spanish (and he threw that one to the bin by himself).

BTW: The spanish comentators mentioned that Renault have put a psicologist to help Nelsinho.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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Personally, i think Nelshino is a liability, his quali performances have been poor, with a car like the one he has he should be achiving arround where Glock is achiving at the current moment with Toyota, but Glock has experience i hear you say...

But, that means nothing when the last time you were in F1 was 4 years ago, as the cars have changes alot since then.

In my opinion, if i were Renault id keep Nelshino, but put him to test driver and then get maybes Sato or Davidson, Davidson may be easier to get as i dont think Sato will be in F1 in anything other than a Honda.

The only one in the Renault driver line up at the moment i could see taking his posistion is maybes Grosjean, but overall, Nelshino should be given to at tops Silverstone to see what he can do, as i also think he has had too many retirements, if he can get a good finish or two under his belt who knows...

At the moment, i do hate watching him as i think he has taken over the job left by Ralf of Moving Chicane.

ginsu
ginsu
0
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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i was born in brasil, and i think i hate nelsinho more than most. i think he's
been gifted a drive and does not deserve it...there have been absolutely no
brilliant flashes of speed, and he's been in the wall way too many times already.
remember, he had an entire year of testing in the Renault, he really shouldn't
be binning the car as frequently as he does. i remember flavio absolutely
livid after one bad result from heikki, and it was australia the first race of the
season...i think we all know that nelsinho's days are numbered...i think flavio
is actually being nice by not expressing his true beliefs about him.

honestly, if you guys were driving a car with $20,000 wings, would you risk the
chance to crash it at all? personally, if i was a rookie i would make sure
i brought that car home. i think the crashes are what's really irking people.

also, it was hilarious to see them put the slicks on nelsons car...i just knew
the next shot would be of him in the wall...

i guess i would be nicer, but he's had every opportunity, and other people make
due with a lot less...hmmm, like anthony davidson.


just looked at the numbers...heikki did way better up to monaco, nelson has
even had the benefit of an extra race.

AUS - 10th, MAL - 8th, BAH - 9th, ESP - 7th, MON - 13th

nelsinho

AUS - Ret, MAL - 11th, BAH - Ret, ESP - Ret, TUR - 15th, MON - Ret

that means nelson has a 67% chance of retiring in Canada based on
his previous results...ouch
I love to love Senna.

axle
axle
3
Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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The best person to compare Nelsinho to is Kazuki...another famous son, another rookie this year, another awesome team-mate to be compared to.

Kazuki is slower than Nico, especially on tracks that are new to him. Kazuki's inexperience has been evident at times ie the first race of the season...but he's brought it home, and in the points, on a number of occasions. He's driven clean races, especially Monaco, and although ultimately outpaced in quali proving a lot of people wrong. DC said F1 is not a finishing school when commenting on Kazuki's announced drive last year, I think DC will agree that he's done a good job after a couple of shakey races (Brazil and Oz). He will get fast and catch up the 3 tenths he seems to lack...

Nelsinho though...is miles adrift of his team-mate. His errors are mainly unforced and he's not got any excuses when you compare him to Kazuki. Personally I'd put a clause in his contract so he pays for the damage he causes! That might buck his ideas up!

Having said all that, there's little point changing the driver line up now. they wanted a weak No.2 so that FA wasn't challenged and they've got one. I don't think they expected him to be quite so weak though.

I hope he manages to rebuild his own reputation by the end of the season, but I can't see it happening right now...
- Axle

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vyselegend
0
Joined: 20 Feb 2006, 17:05
Location: Paris, France

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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I see one big reason to swap him with an experienced driver ASAP: Points!

:arrow: Renault admit development dilemma

I don't know exactly how it is done, but I think there are contractual engagements between a team and it's title sponsor, stating for exemple a minimal result limit etc. Which means the team cannot decide to focus its efforts on next year car if it isn't able to protect a decent position in the standings. Last year ING wasn't happy at all with the 4th place in WCC (which transformed to 3rd in the circumstances you all know), having signed with the champion team. They voiced their dissatisfaction and Renault clearly had to improve from this position if they were to keep this juicy sponsor.

Now Renault lies 7th in the championship! Furthermore, the threatening doesn't stop with the sponsor, don't forget teams are gaining money from their results.

The situation is simple. If they want to have a chance of return to form in 2009, they have to switch their efforts toward next year. But it means they absolutely need drivers able to score points on a regular basis (even if it is alway 7th and 8th places) in a car which paradoxally will stop progressing. Seems difficult, but Heikki Kovalainen managed that last year. I've no doubt FA is up to the job, but they have to replace Nelson with an experienced driver IMO. I think Sato would be able to score P8 with the R28, as would be the other drivers mentioned like Davidson or Klien.

If somehow they fail, and finish the year behind Red Bull and/or Williams and/or Toyota, you can be sure ING will say goodbye, and if that happens, I bet Carlos Ghosn will call it a day too.

That said, there are two points to be made to avoid making undue harm to Piquet:

1-Only result speaks, and in the end his zero point score is no less than Glock's or Coulthard's, even if his driving have been worse.

2-Renault are the only responsible for this dramatic position, having shown overconfidence in the abilities of the R28 car, and thinking pairing a rookie with FA would be enough to challenge the top three.

Miguel
Miguel
2
Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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You make a very good point, Vyselegend.

The thing is, can a "midfielder" challenge McLaren, Ferrari or BMW this year? As it is, I feel that Rosberg, Webber, Alonso and Trulli will get about 90% of the non-leading points.

This would make 10 places. If someone else wants to get points, you need to either have three mechanical retirements from the top 10, or a bad race of some of the guys above, or weird weather or be a driving legend (name: Jim, surname: Clark). Note this can happen, as Wurz almost got as many points as Rosberg last year (thanks to Gilles Villeneuve and Nürburgring). Now that I say it, well, a lucky safety car may be enough if they keep the rules.

Renault is of course willing to improve it's situation. Would Davidson or Sato really help? I don't mention Grosjean, because he's likely to become an ace, and grooming him will benefit Renault in the long term. In my opinion, Davidson or Sato (or nearly anybody free right now) would at most be like 3/4 places better. If it was me, I'd gamble a couple of months more with Piquet. Feck, they've seen him testing, so they know how much he s***s, and they don't have this information on, let's say, Sato.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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Renault are not in a nice position that is clear. Their KERS development is way behind the leaders and they do not have the capacities of Ferrari and McLaren to run two big completely different developments. I even daubt that BMW can compare in that regard with the top teams this year. In the last years it was probably possible but not this year. They can probably defend their 3rd rank and win a race without compromising next year. but challenging McLaren isn't realistic if the form remains as seen.

The other problem is that Renault allow Briatore to manage all Renault drivers. They missed out on Bourdais that way. He had been a better choice than Piquet. It is unknown if Sato would agree to a Briatore contract. so sticking with Piquet may just be due to lack of options.

the time will come when the pain is too big or Piquet may miracolously find some form.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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vyselegend wrote:I see one big reason to swap him with an experienced driver ASAP: Points!

...

That said, there are two points to be made to avoid making undue harm to Piquet:

1-Only result speaks, and in the end his zero point score is no less than Glock's or Coulthard's, even if his driving have been worse.

2-Renault are the only responsible for this dramatic position, having shown overconfidence in the abilities of the R28 car, and thinking pairing a rookie with FA would be enough to challenge the top three.
Wow, this has shaped up to

be a far better topic than I thought it could be, and no doubt this owes much to vyselegend's (and subsequently others') thoughtful opening and contributions. I've always found it hard to say anything definitive about Nelson and am particularly averse of jumping to conclusions at this point.

This is mostly down to Piquet's history and the complexities of his position, so well documented here already. As the general wisdom has it, he seems to acclimatise slowly but is competitive thereafter. The points issue is pressing for Renault, there can be no doubt about that. Last year wasn't very stellar for them, but by this time they had 21 points nonetheless - compared to the total of nine amassed so far this season. Comparatively speaking I don't think they've ever done this badly since 2002, even. As Miguel calculates, Nelson faces an uphill battle in getting even to the smallest of points. I'm growing to appreciate that the "we must always be among the top three teams" approach is working against facing up to the real challenges in Formula One.

There is no "adequately good" in racing, it is a standard more befitting to a manufacturer competing in the automotive sector seeking to appease a market and guarding its profit margin. Ergo, perhaps it's not fair to expect Piquet to "cope with the situation", but rather he should be allowed to push in his own terms - never mind occasional failures to perform. Risks exist, that's the "raison d'être" for the likes of ING. Before looking elsewhere (As some report they're doing - would Alonso follow? BMW, Toyota, anyone?), perhaps they should point it out to Renault that Piquet should have a greater say in how he manages risk rather than conform to arbitrary expectations. The team is seemingly gripped by a defensiveness which is not conducive to progress. This can effectively stump the growth of a "rookie".

The confidence, dominance, self-sufficiency, shrewdness, lack of guilt (as researched and reported by psychologists like Deborah Graham, Keith Johnsgard & Bruce Ogilvie et.al.) and whatnot must come from within; those cannot be imposed by any measure, only accommodated. Mind you, this is not a problem with contemporary F1 unique to Piquet alone, but it can be argued to be the most visible atm with his current situation. More generally I believe the recent trends in the commercial structure, management, strategy and focus of technological constraints has worked against recognising, articulating and exemplifying what is the "nature of racing". This could very well be contributing to the longer term causalities that have led to reduced overtaking.

Also noteworthy is the oft-cited frustration with the "distant" F1, symptomatic not only of an ill advised PR micromanagement of the sport, but perhaps in the larger framework the removal of drivers from their own ambition and purpose as well. But now I'm veering pretty far from Piquet. In a way, this is also a chance for Alonso to rise up to a challenge. By now, he's acquired a lot of perspective on the ambitions and trials of rookies (himself, Hamilton, Kovy) and presumably could with little to no effort buffer some of the pressure he knows to be unnecessary, while respecting Nelson's right to be "his own man". Not exactly mentoring, but behaving in an actively accommodating role.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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Ok, I think I read all of these posts, and almost all agree that Piquet is not living up to expectations, and his future does not look promising either.

I think the real question is now, how long should Renault tolerate either his retirements, or his lack of pace?

Regarding the continuation of unforced errors that result in destruction of expensive machinery, well, personally I would give him one more race. Sorry, that it has to be Canada (i.e. Wall of Champions), and I'm sure it's more than accommodating to rookies like Nelsinho, but he's just costing the team too much money both in the immediate and long term (e.g. possible loss of Sponsorship).

As for the lack of pace, well, give him maybe a month or so...he says he will improve when they return to the European races that he is familiar with, so as long as he can keep the car on the track for the next couple races, I guess they should tolerate his poor results for a little while longer.

Honestly, I do not want it to be this way, I really, really want another Brasilian champion, especially if we get some historical Piquet vs. Senna action going (if only by inherited fame and notoriety). But, I also do not like the idea that there are some talented drivers waiting in the wings (sorry, Sato has had his day, give Davidson the drive). Imagine the disappointment Davidson has to go through watching the races on TV, not to mention the awful coverage.

Well, I guess I wish him luck, he really does need it.
I love to love Senna.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Nelson Piquet junior

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I'm confused, ginsu. Hasn't Sato outqualified and outran Davidson this year?
Ciro