Are Regulations Limitting Performance Too Much?

[Vyssion]

edit
I think I need to state outright that, yes, I am aware that this would never work for a new "ruleset" or "formula" and it is purely a demonstration of engineering given a lack of a moderating body. I am aware why rulesets and regulations exist, and I do think they are important. This thread was purely to highlight the difference between a regulation acceptable vehicle vs. an effectively "unlimitted" one; nothing more.

Figured this was an interesting take on how much faster racing cars could be without regulations whilst still holding true to their overall shape and "type" of car.

It is interesting pose the question of whether all the regulations on different motorsport formulas are acutally doing more limitting than encouraging good racing. Yes, there are the same arguments of "some teams can't afford it" or "you need some of those things in the car in order to do the types of races that they usually run, rather than a single fast lap", etc etc... but if regulation removal results in a 12 second a lap increase in speed!!?? It does make you think... And you can still easily tell that it is an LMP1 car from the outside too... Definitely interesting.





Porsche revealed a new 919 Hybrid Evo which was kind of an upgraded version of its Le Mans winning LMP1 car. It managed to lap Spa-Francorchamps quicker than Lewis Hamilton's pole position laptime from 2017.

It's 2.0L V4.... yes, you read that right.... has had a power increase from 372kW to 535kW!! Due mostly to the fuel flow rates no longer being limited by regulations. Also, both ERSs have also been delimitted so they can operate at maximum potential which allowed the car to use 8.49 MJ of energy instead of the maximum allowed 6.37 MJ per lap under the racing conditions. That allowed the hybrid system to put out 330kW, compared to the old 298kW.

They also changed the aerodynamics by adding a larger front diffuser and rear wing with active aerodynamics on both (DRS and the like). Coupled with this, weight was also reduced by 39kg with the lack of the need for windscreenwipers, air-conditioning, onboard jacking systems, etc.

The Prosche factory driver Neel Jani was the driver for the lap and managed to lap Spa in 1:41.770, which beat Lewis Hamilton’s 1:42.553m pole position time for the 2017 Belgium Grand Prix. He said “We are not only faster than the F1 pole from 2017. Today’s lap was 12 seconds faster compared to our WEC pole position from last year!”

[santos]

It is an amazing job, but it was a car alone on a track. It's not just limitting for economical reasons, There are safety reasons. We need better racing, i don't think we need faster cars.

[Jolle]

The definition of formula one is that you are competing against each other under the same set of regulations (aka the formula).

Making a LMP car go around a track 12 seconds faster, isn't a great deal. Just some different tyres can make a 6 second difference and with adjustable aero it's really no trick at all. With those modifications you could make a Manor from 2014 go faster then the W09.

[zac510]

Sportscars really have too many good things - enclosed wheel arches, big floor, wide tyres, wide wings, front/rear diffusers and in the case of current LMP1, partial 4WD and lots of hybrid power. It's a wish list written by any car designer so it's little wonder they're heavily regulated with rocks for tyres, vehicle weight and fuel flow/energy limits.

[jjn9128]

Interesting topic, you know I come from a different POV to you, having 4 years of a PhD and beyond thinking about rules from the perspective of the regulator rather than the competitor.

The purpose of rules is to come up with a framework which suits all the parties involved. In the case of F1 and WEC the OEM's involved want a particular engine formula, with fuel flow limits and ERS...etc for a passing relevance to their end product. Pirelli were asked by FOTA, FIA, FOM to design a product with a specific set of criteria - mainly high deg for multiple pitstops and race strategies. FOM want exciting racing so want to tailor the aero for minimal interference, while the FIA want cars to be safe so want to tailor the aero for lower corner speed. Then the constructors reach the limits of a regulation and the whole thing starts over.

This prototype is an interesting concept - I love the rear wing, it looks like the Nissan/Jag/Toyota group C cars. But in the end all it is is a P1 style car with a lot of the limits imposed by the rules removed. e.g. if this car did an F1 style race where there was a 100kg fuel limit - how many laps at that pace would it manage? Not many I'd bet.

The problem comes with the end product being boring - F1 increased performance (reduced the artificial limits) in 2017 and the drivers just cant race any more - not without DRS anyway. Conversely Indycar reduced performance and the racing is better.

My problem with regulations isn't that performance is limited - I'd rather performance was limited more - but that innovation is limited. The F1 bodywork rules in 1994 was 680 words long, they are now 7378 words long - and that's just the bodywork rules!! The overall technical rulebook is 104 pages long.

[gdogg371]

For me, Formula One should be confined by the following, fairly broad definitions:

- open wheel
- open cockpit
- wide track
- four wheels
- cog based gearbox, requiring driver to control all the shifts
- active suspension
- traction control/ABS still banned
- limited ground effect to make overtaking easier
- engine power to never exceed 1600bhp
- some form of hybrid power retained

...beyond that though, in my heart I would like to see the regs a lot less restrictive than they are currently. I also think with the hybrids, we have to accept the V10 era is over and push the concept further. Regenerative braking on all four wheels, bigger capacity engines, increased fuel flow, higher revs etc to achieve more power and noise.

You have to have boundaries though. I don't think anyone wants to see an eight wheeled wing car with a turbocharged, hybrid, 4 litre V12 revving to 20,000rpm. You could quite easily take F1 cars into the realms of fighter jet performance if you wanted. Don't think many people would enjoy watching a Benny Hill esque race with cars cornering at 200mph...

[TVirus72]

For me, formula 2, 3, 4 and E is world's more interesting to watch.


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Jolle]

For me, formula 2, 3, 4 and E is world's more interesting to watch.


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

All you mentioned are spec series. The whole point of formula one is that it's about competing manufacturers, not just drivers. The whole point about this forum is that there is a development battle between the teams.

[TVirus72]

For me, formula 2, 3, 4 and E is world's more interesting to watch.


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

All you mentioned are spec series. The whole point of formula one is that it's about competing manufacturers, not just drivers. The whole point about this forum is that there is a development battle between the teams.

Your correct, I did... I love spec series.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Vyssion]

edit
I think I need to state outright that, yes, I am aware that this would never work for a new "ruleset" or "formula" and it is purely a demonstration of engineering given a lack of a moderating body. I am aware why rulesets and regulations exist, and I do think they are important. This thread was purely to highlight the difference between a regulation acceptable vehicle vs. an effectively "unlimitted" one; nothing more.

[godlameroso]

It is insane that a heavier car with less aero is as fast as F1 cars will be around Spa this year. It was doing 370 km/h down Kemmel F1 cars are lucky to do 328 there especially this year.

[mrluke]

I think the biggest problem with current regulation, more in f1 than wec, is that it makes the cars too similar.

The best racing is when the cars do the same/similar lap times but generate them in different ways.

[jjn9128]

It is insane that a heavier car with less aero is as fast as F1 cars will be around Spa this year. It was doing 370 km/h down Kemmel F1 cars are lucky to do 328 there especially this year.

P1's are not far off F1 in their high downforce configurations. This car with the massive rear wing and skirts will be getting close to, if not exceeding F1 levels of downforce. The covered wheels and DRS (front and rear) will contribute to the top speed, despite the high downforce - so where an F1 will have 3.5< L/D<4 this car will be more like 5.5 to 6.

[Vanja #66]

Put bodywork around wheels and canopy around cockpit opening and an F1 car with all the current regulations and limitations would go at least 3s faster than it will this year. No, I'm not saying F1 car would always beat LMP1 in this type of track (it's a given), I'm saying you can always go faster if you just let engineers do what they want. Motorsport has come a long way in 80+ years, as has technology - and both will keep going forward. Limitations and regulations are there to make it a challenge for everyone, not just drivers.

[johnny comelately]

Yes.
The mere fact this topic is raised proves the point.
Convergence, parity and e engines are the enemy