General Honda F1 Topic

[dren]

Based on development time, if Honda and Renault are equal, it shows well for Honda. By the end of this PU formula, I do expect Honda to be ahead of Renault. But I don't think they'll be ahead or far enough ahead of Renault this year to sway Red Bull to change. If Red Bull start winning races on merit, there's no reason for them to change other than the benefits a works supplier brings...but that'll take Red Bull more than a season to reap the rewards. Still a lot of races to go; reliability is still a big question for both PUs.

[kptaylor]

You also have the unknown of what the '21 regs mean as far as new entrants to the sport. RB may already be a works team using another yet-to-be-announced supplier.

[muramasa]

We are waiting for 27 hp from Honda.

Is it about what certain motorsport.com understands?
"Motorsport.com understands Honda is targeting a step of around 27bhp for the Canadian Grand Prix in June."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/how- ... h-1024484/

Tanabe said to Japanese press that he never said it and it's complete fantasy. So forget it.
Either of Asaki, Yamamoto and Tanabe have been saying since during winter that they would be bringing whatever upgrades at PU cycle timing during season and that's about it, and such stuff is self evident anyway, but xxhp? anytime specific number is mentioned, it should be treated by instant and automatic dismissal.

Seriously those F1 media and writers in general have some fundamental issues. Seems they dont really mind creating fake news, or outright lie and they dont care about it anymore. Happened to Hasegawa, happened to Arai many times as well, of course Eric B, Horner, Abiteboul or just everyone is victim. What I dont know is whether F1 journalism has been this way for long long time or deteriorating rather lately. (well at least this time they have some conscience left and put it as "what they understand" rather than creating quote, which happened a lot to Arai...)

[etusch]

We are waiting for 27 hp from Honda.

Is it about what certain motorsport.com understands?
"

Yes it was based motorsport news and as we expecting more performance from Honda we believe easily this kind of news. And for same reason I am sad to hear that. Is not there update for Canada?
There was other news saying Honda's 2018 engine performance will be visible second part of season. Is that also a lie?

[No343NoLife]

Just read Mineoki Yoneya(@m_yoneya)'s interview on "Weekly SPA!"

Interesting to know that Mr.Hachigo was the only person on the board who was against pulling away from the sport...


It seems Mr. muramasa doesn't like newbies doing business in his territory, so this will be my last Japanese article transcription

[techman]

one thhing i dont like about honda , is they quit quickly. i remember the brawn car. they spent the whole year trying to make this car and finally without giving it a chance they quit and sold it for cheap. it did more damage to them and mercedes took all the credit. sometimes it frustrates me that these honda people are not tough enough. they scared to open up and speak up. it was compete opposite of european. eric b bashed them endlessly. and honda were scared to defend. and now we all can see why the mclaren honda partnership failed. it was problem with mclaren drag issue and honda problems.

[muramasa]

We are waiting for 27 hp from Honda.

Is it about what certain motorsport.com understands?
"

Yes it was based motorsport news and as we expecting more performance from Honda we believe easily this kind of news. And for same reason I am sad to hear that. Is not there update for Canada?
There was other news saying Honda's 2018 engine performance will be visible second part of season. Is that also a lie?

Sorry to say this but some of you are appallingly naive.

"27hp (=20kW lol), Canada" and easily jump on it without even making basic fact check. Really it's about basic literacy that's applicable to all the things not just F1, not about anything else. None of token upgrade predictions in 2015 and 2016 and update predictions in 2017 made by those media and rumors came true despite the prediction window being very narrow (only 4-5 PU components and 20 races but realistic window is much smaller than that). Seriously when will you learn? Never take something like "what motorsport.com understands" let alone anything less than that.

And, update is coming. No brainer. All makers are working on development and again it's just self evident that all makers will be bringing whatever upgrades at PU cycle timing. Just because "27hp Canada" turned out to be fabrication by the incompetent writer does not mean upgrade is not coming.
I don't understand such extreme thinking like "sad" "is not there update for Canada?". Update itself is coming. Have you read my post? Either of Asaki, Yamamoto and Tanabe have been saying they would be bringing updates at PU cycle timings, and again and again it's self evident that updates will be coming. It's just that no one other than Honda can know what is coming, and do not take those bs like "what motorsport.com understands", that's it.

Regarding "engine performance will be visible second part of season", are you talking about "it will take at least half a year until it's visible (or something of that sort)" remark made by Asaki (not Tanabe) in winter break couple months ago?

Asaki was not talking about specific number like anything will come in 6 months. He was explaining that Honda has been making some reformations to its F1 operation throughout 2017 and Asaki himself started being in charge of Large Project Leader of F1 in Dec 2017, and he assesses that it will take at least another half year (from the point of interview ie January 2018) before things start coming to fruition as a result of reformation. So Asaki is merely talking about overall picture and prospect. But all the subtle nuance gets completely lost and it becomes "6 months!" "major upgrade is coming in 6 months (so after/around summer)!".
(Actually Honda has been making constant major reformations ever since March 2015 and this is more like yet another evolution rather than anything special or turnaround really)

Just read Mineoki Yoneya(@m_yoneya)'s interview on "Weekly SPA!"

Interesting to know that Mr.Hachigo was the only person on the board who was against pulling away from the sport...

Your interpretation is completely wrong. It's just that there was sentiment among some part of Honda that they may have to accept withdrawal in worst case but Hachigo worked hard or something like that. And all these without credible source and quotes being presented, it's just petty small talk.

Are you not aware that SPA is a tabloid? And Yoneya is not good journalist, he and any of those Japanese F1 journalists are only useful for those official personnel quotes from interviews.

Continuing F1 this time around is the corporate will of Honda, Ito (ex-Honda president), Arai, Hasegawa etc repeatedly explained that this time they will not quit F1 even if Lehman class economy shock happens and they strive to create intra structure to enable that.

[etusch]

...

Of course we know there will be updates. I don't know if it is true or not but we have readen that Honda also planning strategic penalties for more Pu than 3. ( in fact it is a must any more)
So expecting update to Canada is normal but power numbers, or believing that numbers are, as I said, comes from our expectations to see better performance. It is welcome every update of course

[dren]

I'm sure they're constantly improving the coding for the PU operation, too. That can take place without a PU change.

[Talisman]

Continuing F1 this time around is the corporate will of Honda, Ito (ex-Honda president), Arai, Hasegawa etc repeatedly explained that this time they will not quit F1 even if Lehman class economy shock happens and they strive to create intra structure to enable that.

That is a VERY naive assumption. Honda did consider pulling out rather than switching to STR, frankly if they hadn't considered it seriously then I would question their decision making methodology.

All manufacturers have been fully committed to F1 for eternity right up until the point they decide not to be. Thats why in the last two/three decades manufacturers have been happy to sign up to the Concorde agreement which has punitive fines for companies who withdraw before the agreement expires, after all they aren't the ones who are going to be pulling out are they? Ask Honda, BMW or Toyota how much they had to pay to leave F1 back in 2008/9, the cost was shocking. So yes I expect full 200% commitment from Honda in F1 right up until the board meeting where they decide that their project has run past its sell by date and pull the plug. Just like every other manufacturer throughout the history of F1 bar Ferrari.

Also I think you should reconsider your condescending tone towards other members here. While I agree with you that Honda have never committed themselves to any update schedule or scale, it would be reasonable for people to take numbers thrown at them from what are fairly reputable sources at face value. After all you appear to do the same for Honda interviews even when the evidence overwhelmingly contradicts what they have said.

[hasika]

http://www.as-web.jp/f1/363687?all
Many journalists visited Honda Hospitality House,some journalists even ask the japanese journalist if there are some information about Red Bull and Honda.

As the regulation,the Engine Manufacturer have to let the FIA know which teams they will supply for the next season before May 15.

So honda have to decide which teams they will supply during the Spain GP.So many journalists think they must have some negotiation this week.

Christian Horner said Red Bull will not make the decision so early,and the time limit dont have that strong binding force,like what we saw last year.But on the other hand,it seems that FIA dont want something like last year happen again.Anyway,we dont know what decision Red Bull will make now.

We saw the honda motorsports boss Yamamoto came to the Azerbaijan GP already,so we can see what will happen in the following days.

[techman]

very interesting. i hope redbull honda, i cant be sure. just hoping. we know that redbull will create another winner no doubt.

[muramasa]

http://www.as-web.jp/f1/363687?all
Many journalists visited Honda Hospitality House,some journalists even ask the japanese journalist if there are some information about Red Bull and Honda.

As the regulation,the Engine Manufacturer have to let the FIA know which teams they will supply for the next season before May 15.

So honda have to decide which teams they will supply during the Spain GP.So many journalists think they must have some negotiation this week.

Christian Horner said Red Bull will not make the decision so early,and the time limit dont have that strong binding force,like what we saw last year.But on the other hand,it seems that FIA dont want something like last year happen again.Anyway,we dont know what decision Red Bull will make now.

We saw the honda motorsports boss Yamamoto came to the Azerbaijan GP already,so we can see what will happen in the following days.

Corrected your translation.
This is yet another subpar article as usual anyway so I dont bother to do more than correcting translation.

It's natural to consider that some negotiation must be commenced at Azerbaijan GP at the latest in order to decide at Spain GP.

It's not like buying groceries at Amazon. In order to reach such sort of agreement at Spanish GP, you have to have decided overall but quite detailed framework long time ago and basically be in a state of just saying yes or no already, rather than "starting at Azerbaijan GP".

Christian Horner said they'd like to decide by around August

What Horner said is "will be decided at the end of the summer". Horner is being bit disingenuous here of course as he must know "end of summer" PU swap would have huge negative impact for 2019 car design, and be aware that such procrastination would cause Renault's reaction (or more like pro-action). But he did not say "August" as far as I'm aware and can search on google. Writing "August" is nothing but quote alteration.

There are some people who insist that May 15 deadline doesnt entail absolute obligation, as seen in the precedence of McLaren-STR swap last year. But Honda and Renault who were the very parties concerned in the case do not wish to owe FIA again by changing teams to supply past the deadline.

It's very simplistic thought/imagination. So what debt do Renault have to FIA by their brinkmanship negotiation in 2015 (not that I'm accusing Renault, it was their rights and totally appropriate tactic)? Or Ferrari? Sauber, FI (for filing complaint to EU)? etc etc. If anything it's McLaren who owes FIA here for forcing their way to part Honda (again note that I'm not saying they actually do), or Renault who kinda took advantage of the situation to snatch McLaren from Honda. Honda of course have some sort of gratitude for FIA for intermediating, but that's about it. In this case it is Red Bull who is contemplating about 2019 PU choice, not Honda nor Renault to begin with. And if talking about upper hand and lower hand, in theory Red Bull has some upper hand coz they've done some sort of favor to the sport by providing STR for Honda. Anyways all teams all makers pursue their own interest and this RBR's tactics is nothing hardliner to cause controversy/problem at all.

Yamamoto attends Azerbaijan GP

Just note that Yamamoto attending GP is not rare at all, he frequented GP last year and attending all GPs this year. BTW in opening GP Honda's president and vice president as well as Moriyama (marketing chief) attended the race (this is rare but president attending opening race as well as Suzuka is kinda ritual now).



Anyway I'd be really surprised if RBR switch to Honda for 2019. Honda PU is the worst and you cannot simply know their short-mid term prospect now or in the next several months, Honda should get more competitive but Renault will advance as well and always before Honda does (PU pecking order will not change in current PU era, gap b/w makers may or may not shrink), and RBR will have to throw away years of experience regarding Renault PU integration and reset everything for accommodating Honda which is just massive. Huge gamble, or much more than that. Only swap that makes sense is Merc or Ferrari.
Perhaps Aston Martin badged Merc PU is much more likely than Honda. I'd guess RBR will see out current engine reg era with Renault, and see how 2021 reg goes and wait for what VW will do.

[Bill]

So Honda power unit is the worst without qualifying it doesn't mean much. Is it the worst in terms of fuel economy, power, weight, size?

Renault has not found additional power for this year. They only improved reliability & still using MGU-K from 2016.

Honda seem to have improved more power and general has better reliability since winter testing. STR has been impressed with Honda pu they say it's a high tech pu ,I like to know what are u looking at were do you get your facts muramasa RBR has them (data),what do got.

[etusch]

Anyway I'd be really surprised if RBR switch to Honda for 2019. Honda PU is the worst and you cannot simply know their short-mid term prospect now or in the next several months, Honda should get more competitive but Renault will advance as well and always before Honda does (PU pecking order will not change in current PU era, gap b/w makers may or may not shrink), and RBR will have to throw away years of experience regarding Renault PU integration and reset everything for accommodating Honda which is just massive. Huge gamble, or much more than that. Only swap that makes sense is Merc or Ferrari.
Perhaps Aston Martin badged Merc PU is much more likely than Honda. I'd guess RBR will see out current engine reg era with Renault, and see how 2021 reg goes and wait for what VW will do.

If redbull could have mercedes engine they would get it after what they had live with Renault( this kind of rebranding does not give mercedes any income, Redbull and Renault did it because of what happened between them) . But as you know Mersedes didn't give Redbull their PU. And mercedes will give their PU to redbull only the situation that a mercedes PU needs to rb chassis to take first step of podium. As long as they could do that with their own chassis, they don't have any intend to create a team which can beat their works team with their engine.

We can not say the pecking order will not change at this formula. May be It will stay until next formula as what it is now. But we don't know what future will bring and Ferrari is enough evidince for that order can change.
Whatever, lets accept you are right about what you said about engine manufacturers order. Then for Redbull, using Honda PU is more clever choise even in your logic ( There is risk also but it is same for every manufacturers ) If long term Renault engine experience give Redbull a grasp on Renault PU and if things remain same until next formula and redbull stick same second or third team position anyway, then why Redbull stay with renault and miss opportunity to have same grasp (they had on Renault because of experience of years ) on Honda engine for next formula before it come.
Everybody has an expectation about RedBull Honda but we don't know. Maybe it will not happen. But declarations of TR shows us that Honda PU power not far from Renault and this can keep Redbull same place. It looks like they will not lost anything but there is a gain possibility. They will decide by looking at current situation or looking potantial. We can see a relation with Verstappen's sacura visit too.
At the end these are speculations and we will see it in time. Now I will enjoy to watching current partnership's development together. A win, a podium with Toro Rosso Honda will give us more pleasure like Bahrain gp's 4th. Last era's 5th place did not give me such a pleasure.