2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[Fulcrum]

Unfair judgement imho, even in this very race (after the first safety car) Verstappen simply overtook Ric at race restart very authorative, no jumping, no forcing, just outwitted. Also at race start, Turn 1 he avoided being pushed into the wall by Ricc (fair move, no complaining by me) but the "Verstappen only knows get out of my way or crash" is not very truthful.

In this Incident we are discussing here it was actually Ric trying to overtake and the way he did it fully adheres to your "his aggressive approach" "trick" "move out of the way or crash".

Listen guys, I am fully for a balanced view, and Verstappen is a hard devil in duels, perhaps he needs to still learn there when not to be as hard but all this, Yes Verstappen has done it gain, Verstappen can't do no good is really getting to me. Grrrrr ;-(

Verstappen can do whatever he likes. I think a large component of the F1 audience is simply questioning the logic of continuing with a strategy which relies on fellow drivers playing to a different set of rules. If everybody behaves like Verstappen, and specifically when racing directly with Verstappen as per Ricciardo this weekend, then Verstappen will lose more points than he gains.

You're also seriously confusing the argument here. Verstappen has come under significant criticism for his defensive driving, nothing like as much his ability to overtake. The most significant incidents have all taken place while he was defending.

The only reason we're hearing about "move out of the way or crash" is because it applied to Senna, and has been dredged up as an argument in Verstappen's favour several times, even though that analogy applied to Senna passing people, not being passed by others.

[djos]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

[J.A.W.]

No mistake from Rosberg, he was just driving.. the race line?

No, simply a hot-head ( 'young, dumb, & full of cum', as the saying goes) driving boldly,
& pushing his luck to the nth %..

See here for a similar example of a kid going 'hell-for-leather' in the wet, on pure reaction-time/confidence..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Ezbfk2RJs

Lately however, Max's 'luck' appears.. to have taken a powder..

[Jolle]

I used the Senna quote trying to understand why the people on this forum have more problems with VER then the guys he is crashing into. Not to compare him with Senna, but more a way trying to understand the logic of racing drivers.

There might be lots of parallels with the "wild" drivers like Senna, Verstappen, Hamilton, Villeneuve and Mansell, but that doesn't mean they share the same kind of talent. More the mindset.

It looks like a big game finding the boundaries of each other.

[Phil]

The art of defending / good defensive driving is not making it impossible for faster cars to pass. It's to make it as difficult as possible while remaining fair and within the scope of the rules.

If everyone applied swerving all over the place, driving in the middle of the track, or reacting to other drivers movement, overtaking would be next to impossible, regardless how much quicker the car behind is. Obviously, to make overtaking possible, there need to be rules in place, like the 'one defensive-move'. Obviously, the sport wants more overtaking, hence the new rules for better aero for 2019, the DRS they introduced to reduce drag etc. This however will also open up more dangerous scenarios where an overtaker might be carrying a significant amount of more speed that will only make things more dangerous for both if certain rules and guidelines are not followed.

[johnny vee]

The art of defending / good defensive driving is not making it impossible for faster cars to pass. It's to make it as difficult as possible while remaining fair and within the scope of the rules.

If everyone applied swerving all over the place, driving in the middle of the track, or reacting to other drivers movement, overtaking would be next to impossible, regardless how much quicker the car behind is. Obviously, to make overtaking possible, there need to be rules in place, like the 'one defensive-move'. Obviously, the sport wants more overtaking, hence the new rules for better aero for 2019, the DRS they introduced to reduce drag etc. This however will also open up more dangerous scenarios where an overtaker might be carrying a significant amount of more speed that will only make things more dangerous for both if certain rules and guidelines are not followed.

Great post Phil, I agree with you 100%

[Sieper]

Unfair judgement imho, even in this very race (after the first safety car) Verstappen simply overtook Ric at race restart very authorative, no jumping, no forcing, just outwitted. Also at race start, Turn 1 he avoided being pushed into the wall by Ricc (fair move, no complaining by me) but the "Verstappen only knows get out of my way or crash" is not very truthful.

In this Incident we are discussing here it was actually Ric trying to overtake and the way he did it fully adheres to your "his aggressive approach" "trick" "move out of the way or crash".

Listen guys, I am fully for a balanced view, and Verstappen is a hard devil in duels, perhaps he needs to still learn there when not to be as hard but all this, Yes Verstappen has done it gain, Verstappen can't do no good is really getting to me. Grrrrr ;-(

Verstappen can do whatever he likes. I think a large component of the F1 audience is simply questioning the logic of continuing with a strategy which relies on fellow drivers playing to a different set of rules. If everybody behaves like Verstappen, and specifically when racing directly with Verstappen as per Ricciardo this weekend, then Verstappen will lose more points than he gains.

You're also seriously confusing the argument here. Verstappen has come under significant criticism for his defensive driving, nothing like as much his ability to overtake. The most significant incidents have all taken place while he was defending.

The only reason we're hearing about "move out of the way or crash" is because it applied to Senna, and has been dredged up as an argument in Verstappen's favour several times, even though that analogy applied to Senna passing people, not being passed by others.

Move out the way or crash has never been used in Verstappen’s favour, only to insult him. He overtook Ric at race restart without Any bullying, just good and clever driving. No moving out of the way or crash trashtalk, just fine overtaking. The same can not be set about Ric’s latest attempts not only on Verstappen but just as well on Bottas in China. Both are in that style but no critique on Ric (Instead he is called the finest overtaker and very gladly accepts that) only ever critique on Max.

If Verstappen would have given in and just moved out of the way I think I already know the cheerfull comment from the same people. And even then, If Ric pulls a good move with his tow and Drs working for him Max will let him by, as he did in lap 35.

Again, I can agree Max is a too hard dog sometimes still, I hope he will judge that better in the future but really all these arguments have been proven wrong in this very same race. All this Poor Ric mean Max analogy is far too one sided.

[Sieper]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Maybe If Senna would have had the opportunity to do 35 laps in Baku with a 22 second straight and a DRS thrown in for the mix he could have tasted that sweet taste.

[Fulcrum]

Unfair judgement imho, even in this very race (after the first safety car) Verstappen simply overtook Ric at race restart very authorative, no jumping, no forcing, just outwitted. Also at race start, Turn 1 he avoided being pushed into the wall by Ricc (fair move, no complaining by me) but the "Verstappen only knows get out of my way or crash" is not very truthful.

In this Incident we are discussing here it was actually Ric trying to overtake and the way he did it fully adheres to your "his aggressive approach" "trick" "move out of the way or crash".

Listen guys, I am fully for a balanced view, and Verstappen is a hard devil in duels, perhaps he needs to still learn there when not to be as hard but all this, Yes Verstappen has done it gain, Verstappen can't do no good is really getting to me. Grrrrr ;-(

Verstappen can do whatever he likes. I think a large component of the F1 audience is simply questioning the logic of continuing with a strategy which relies on fellow drivers playing to a different set of rules. If everybody behaves like Verstappen, and specifically when racing directly with Verstappen as per Ricciardo this weekend, then Verstappen will lose more points than he gains.

You're also seriously confusing the argument here. Verstappen has come under significant criticism for his defensive driving, nothing like as much his ability to overtake. The most significant incidents have all taken place while he was defending.

The only reason we're hearing about "move out of the way or crash" is because it applied to Senna, and has been dredged up as an argument in Verstappen's favour several times, even though that analogy applied to Senna passing people, not being passed by others.

Move out the way or crash has never been used in Verstappen’s favour, only to insult him. He overtook Ric at race restart without Any bullying, just good and clever driving. No moving out of the way or crash trashtalk, just fine overtaking. The same can not be set about Ric’s latest attempts not only on Verstappen but just as well on Bottas in China. Both are in that style but no critique on Ric (Instead he is called the finest overtaker and very gladly accepts that) only ever critique on Max.

If Verstappen would have given in and just moved out of the way I think I already know the cheerfull comment from the same people. And even then, If Ric pulls a good move with his tow and Drs working for him Max will let him by, as he did in lap 35.

Again, I can agree Max is a too hard dog sometimes still, I hope he will judge that better in the future but really all these arguments have been proven wrong in this very same race. All this Poor Ric mean Max analogy is far too one sided.

Let me repeat, no one, that I am aware of, is taking issue with the way Verstappen overtakes. He's pulled off some good moves of his own, without doubt (Silverstone and Brazil being notable examples). Constantly referencing one instance of a good overtake on his part has nothing to do with the conversation the rest of the forum have been having - concerning his ability to defend legitimately.

That example you so glowingly reference also shouldn't be used as a point of comparison for Daniel's attempt, because the circumstances were completely different: no DRS, different corner, everyone on colder tyres, slower speeds, a bunched field with many cars much closer together.

If you really must get on your high horse about Verstappen's overtaking abilities, let's not forget China and the fabulous move he made on Vettel just one race prior to Baku. Or not. Perhaps not so good, and not particularly clever all the time then.

You can consider the "move out of the way or crash" mantra he is being labelled with as an insult; but the only reason that stigma is developing is because the evidence suggests "crash" with increasing likelihood.

I doubt anyone considers Max "mean". "Stupid", "reckless", and "dangerous" might be more appropriate for him regarding his defensive tactics.

[sosic2121]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Maybe If Senna would have had the opportunity to do 35 laps in Baku with a 22 second straight and a DRS thrown in for the mix he could have tasted that sweet taste.

Yes it's though when media hype made you believe you're driving god, yet after 35 laps your teammate is still in DRS range.

[BrunoH]

hahahahahahaha

[Sieper]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Maybe If Senna would have had the opportunity to do 35 laps in Baku with a 22 second straight and a DRS thrown in for the mix he could have tasted that sweet taste.

Yes it's though when media hype made you believe you're driving god, yet after 35 laps your teammate is still in DRS range.

Very hard to get out of with the other DRS zone and you know it. He did get out of DRS though only to get stuck behind Hamilton and Ricci got back in DRS range again.

[Sieper]

Verstappen can do whatever he likes. I think a large component of the F1 audience is simply questioning the logic of continuing with a strategy which relies on fellow drivers playing to a different set of rules. If everybody behaves like Verstappen, and specifically when racing directly with Verstappen as per Ricciardo this weekend, then Verstappen will lose more points than he gains.

You're also seriously confusing the argument here. Verstappen has come under significant criticism for his defensive driving, nothing like as much his ability to overtake. The most significant incidents have all taken place while he was defending.

The only reason we're hearing about "move out of the way or crash" is because it applied to Senna, and has been dredged up as an argument in Verstappen's favour several times, even though that analogy applied to Senna passing people, not being passed by others.

Move out the way or crash has never been used in Verstappen’s favour, only to insult him. He overtook Ric at race restart without Any bullying, just good and clever driving. No moving out of the way or crash trashtalk, just fine overtaking. The same can not be set about Ric’s latest attempts not only on Verstappen but just as well on Bottas in China. Both are in that style but no critique on Ric (Instead he is called the finest overtaker and very gladly accepts that) only ever critique on Max.

If Verstappen would have given in and just moved out of the way I think I already know the cheerfull comment from the same people. And even then, If Ric pulls a good move with his tow and Drs working for him Max will let him by, as he did in lap 35.

Again, I can agree Max is a too hard dog sometimes still, I hope he will judge that better in the future but really all these arguments have been proven wrong in this very same race. All this Poor Ric mean Max analogy is far too one sided.

Let me repeat, no one, that I am aware of, is taking issue with the way Verstappen overtakes. He's pulled off some good moves of his own, without doubt (Silverstone and Brazil being notable examples). Constantly referencing one instance of a good overtake on his part has nothing to do with the conversation the rest of the forum have been having - concerning his ability to defend legitimately.

That example you so glowingly reference also shouldn't be used as a point of comparison for Daniel's attempt, because the circumstances were completely different: no DRS, different corner, everyone on colder tyres, slower speeds, a bunched field with many cars much closer together.

If you really must get on your high horse about Verstappen's overtaking abilities, let's not forget China and the fabulous move he made on Vettel just one race prior to Baku. Or not. Perhaps not so good, and not particularly clever all the time then.

You can consider the "move out of the way or crash" mantra he is being labelled with as an insult; but the only reason that stigma is developing is because the evidence suggests "crash" with increasing likelihood.

I doubt anyone considers Max "mean". "Stupid", "reckless", and "dangerous" might be more appropriate for him regarding his defensive tactics.

Only reason I mention this overtake now twice (I know full well Max made much much much more great overtakes) is that we are talking about this race as a couple of you are trying to paint a picture. Well in this race alone that is already different then the picture you try to portray.

[George-Jung]

Exactly right, Senna was never slow enough to find himself defending against others while in a front running car.

Wrong.

[sosic2121]

Maybe If Senna would have had the opportunity to do 35 laps in Baku with a 22 second straight and a DRS thrown in for the mix he could have tasted that sweet taste.

Yes it's though when media hype made you believe you're driving god, yet after 35 laps your teammate is still in DRS range.

Very hard to get out of with the other DRS zone and you know it. He did get out of DRS though only to get stuck behind Hamilton and Ricci got back in DRS range again.

I thought it was hard to get in DRS.

Anyway, I don't blame only Max for the crash.
There are many things that led to this.
IMO FIA is 100% guilty, RB 80% and Max 50%.
As long this kind of driving continues Max will remain to be second rate driver. (spectacular moves don't count, points do!)
If Max such a huge talent that so many people believe he is, it would be in his interest to change the way he's driving.
Hype and rule bending did him no good in the long run.