2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

[Revs84]

"Sources have suggested both sides are pushing hard for a Red Bull-Honda deal to be sorted - with the Canadian Grand Prix in June potentially key to a final decision as both Honda and Red Bull's current supplier Renault are set to introduce engine upgrades for that race."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13574 ... spanish-gp

[HPD]

“I don’t understand how it is possible to be so competitive with a car which is that good there balance-wise, also in terms of potential, and then just to have such a big delta as soon as you go to another track,” Gasly said.

“Definitely the windy conditions for us are really something which doesn’t suit our car. But we need to really understand if we went to a different direction compared to Bahrain and see where the difference in performance comes from. At the moment we don’t really understand why.”

“When we don’t use DRS, we seem to struggle even more. At the moment energy management is quite difficult for us. [In Baku] it’s really critical in terms of energy, and in the race, I was I think around the Williams, but I think I got overtaken by [Sergio] Perez. I was in front of him at the beginning of the race. After Turn 20 he was already next to me, and at the end of the straight he was past.

“Energy management, we need to have a look at what we could have done better. Since the beginning of the year we didn’t struggle that much, and [in Azerbaijan] it was a much bigger delta that usual.”

http://racer.com/2018/05/03/gasly-perpl ... e-bahrain/

[GhostF1]

Is it plausible that as the PU ages, Honda are being less and less aggressive on it? Each GP, dropping it's performance ever so slightly? I mean with the relentless hunt for reliability could this be a contributing factor to deteriorating performance?

[Ground Effect]

Is it plausible that as the PU ages, Honda are being less and less aggressive on it? Each GP, dropping it's performance ever so slightly? I mean with the relentless hunt for reliability could this be a contributing factor to deteriorating performance?

I don't think that's the issue, especially in Gasly's case, who got a new ICE for Bahrain, as well as other elements. Even from their quotes, it doesn't suggest that. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem as though reliability is an issue. To be fair, it hasn't been an issue since the last few races of 2017.

[etusch]

Is it plausible that as the PU ages, Honda are being less and less aggressive on it? Each GP, dropping it's performance ever so slightly? I mean with the relentless hunt for reliability could this be a contributing factor to deteriorating performance?

According to what you said what we have to think is, Honda and Toro Rosso had an agreement to show audience that they are reliable anymore. Toro Rosso, Honda and redbull have real data but redbull have meeting with Honda for 2019 engine supply and also main and junior team accepted to run a slow Toro Rosso for 2018 campain. And we have to think this after all Honda explanation about issues that Honda had lived since 2015???

[GhostF1]

I think we are taking what I said a little further than intended... I'm not for a minute suggesting Honda are detuning for "perceived reliability" sake, so to look better for the audience at the cost of performance. I'm merely suggesting that it's possible Honda are leaning on the PU's at a slightly reduced level as mileage is accrued. I'm not saying it's costing them half a second or anything that severe. But maybe it's a thought? That in tandem with some TR chassis niggles at each gp, could cause some slight loss of pace.
Or more specifically, the ERS, so maybe the correct thing to say would be, spinning the MGU-H slower or less overall, to prevent any issues with use over as time goes on. Less abuse to bearings, shaft etc.
I think the ICE itself is highly reliable. Honda have had minimal issues with that side of things. Struggles have been focused on the MGU-H unit.

[nzjrs]

Is it plausible that as the PU ages, Honda are being less and less aggressive on it? Each GP, dropping it's performance ever so slightly? I mean with the relentless hunt for reliability could this be a contributing factor to deteriorating performance?

According to what you said what we have to think is, Honda and Toro Rosso had an agreement to show audience that they are reliable anymore. Toro Rosso, Honda and redbull have real data but redbull have meeting with Honda for 2019 engine supply and also main and junior team accepted to run a slow Toro Rosso for 2018 campain. And we have to think this after all Honda explanation about issues that Honda had lived since 2015???

Maybe off topic, but the 2021 regulations budget cap proposal hurts red bull the most, with the bright side for them being the increase in revenue TR will get. So I wouldn't be surprised if they delay the whole thing as long as possible to see if TR necessarily remains their team to recover the lost income past 2021

[Ground Effect]

From all indications and reports, Red Bull seriously considering a deal with Honda for 2019. What does that mean for the current status of Toro Rosso, or will they both be works teams, meaning funding and free engines for both?

[ME4ME]

I'm sure Toro Rosso would deny that they'd lose any "works status" but in reality I think Red Bull would call the shots and Toro Rosso do what they're told.

Helmut Marko has mentioned it before that he finds it stupid to have one owner, two teams, each developing the same kind of part individually. Therefor if and when a Red Bull Honda deal happens, I expect there to be a meeting between key technical managers from Toro Rosso and Red Bull where they transfer all crucial insight and a "lessons learned" document regarding the Honda power unit and operation. From there on I think Red Bull will take over the entire project, developing the powertrain together with Honda and then supply Toro Rosso in 2019 with all the parts they are allowed to share.

It's reported and speculated that Red Bull will not receive the same financial benefints that Mclaren received from Honda. However if both RB and TR can get free PU's, and Red Bull can have this synergy with Toro Rosso, then they can still save a huge amount of resources while simultaneously make sure that Toro Rosso will have a good platform to work with in 2019 and therefor be competitive.

[restless]

Is it plausible that as the PU ages, Honda are being less and less aggressive on it? Each GP, dropping it's performance ever so slightly? I mean with the relentless hunt for reliability could this be a contributing factor to deteriorating performance?

All engines are used less aggressive.
But it seems they had "energy management" problem - being unable to reach what they expected
I read somewhere that this year team are not allowed to use track-specific mappings, maybe that hurt them?

[etusch]

I'm sure Toro Rosso would deny that they'd lose any "works status" but in reality I think Red Bull would call the shots and Toro Rosso do what they're told.

Helmut Marko has mentioned it before that he finds it stupid to have one owner, two teams, each developing the same kind of part individually. Therefor if and when a Red Bull Honda deal happens, I expect there to be a meeting between key technical managers from Toro Rosso and Red Bull where they transfer all crucial insight and a "lessons learned" document regarding the Honda power unit and operation. From there on I think Red Bull will take over the entire project, developing the powertrain together with Honda and then supply Toro Rosso in 2019 with all the parts they are allowed to share.

It's reported and speculated that Red Bull will not receive the same financial benefints that Mclaren received from Honda. However if both RB and TR can get free PU's, and Red Bull can have this synergy with Toro Rosso, then they can still save a huge amount of resources while simultaneously make sure that Toro Rosso will have a good platform to work with in 2019 and therefor be competitive.

They can still be in a better situation. Honda will listen them too. Redbull will listen them too. Some of Redbull works maybe designed by TR engineers and developerd further by redbull engineers and can be used by both team.

[gshevlin]

We have to remember that originally Red Bull's rationale was to have two teams using basically identical cars built by an quasi-independent entity (Red Bull Technology). The Toro Rosso chassis that won in Monza in 2008 was basically identical to the Red Bull chassis, with only minor changes to accomodate the Ferrari power plant. At the time, Toro Rosso was basically what Enzo Ferrari once derisively termed an assemblatore (translation: kit-builder), with no up to date facilities to produce monocoques, perform aero design etc. This was part of a seeming drift towards allowing customer cars, and several ownership groups (notably one headed by David Richards) were eager to join F1 using chassis provided by other constructors (in Richards' case, he had an outline deal to use cars provided by Mclaren).
Then...other teams (mainly Williams) threatened legal action over the move towards customer cars, and the FIA and FOM had to reverse course. Red Bull then had to invest a lot of money in building back up the infrastructure in Faenza so that Toro Rosso could build monocoques and all of the parts used to build an F1 car. In return, Red Bull were given extra money in the new commercial agreement by Bernie Ecclestone. With the new money, and the massive win streak that Red Bull went on, the entire Red Bull operation in F1, including Toro Rosso, was self-financing for several years, with sponsorship and commercial income meaning that Red Bull itself invested almost none of its own money. That era is past, but under the proposed new agreement from Liberty, if Red Bull retains Toro Rosso, extra income for Toro Rosso may offset at least some of the revenue lost from Red Bull, since the new agreement undoubtedly reduces the level of "cash just for showing up" which is mostly given to Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull.
If Red Bull sells Toro Rosso to Honda, that cash net-off option disappears. Which leads me to think that Red Bull would only sell Toro Rosso to Honda if they get an offer they would be fools to refuse. Which I don't think is likely to happen.

[McHonda]

Is it plausible that as the PU ages, Honda are being less and less aggressive on it? Each GP, dropping it's performance ever so slightly? I mean with the relentless hunt for reliability could this be a contributing factor to deteriorating performance?

It's just track specific and the performance of the engine and chassis aren't static. Baku hurt the ERS so even if the layout suited the car it didn't suit the engine. Bahrain suited both. China suited the engine but not the car, and the drivers let both down anyway. Australia suited neither.

Spain will be fine for the engine but the car hasn't really shone yet on the higher d/f tracks so hopefully the updates brought can change that. Not that it looked bad in pre-season or anything but we've got new tyres and hotter weather so not much to go on.

[Ground Effect]

Whatever the case, in Barcelona, there shouldn't be setup issues. Everybody knows the direction they need to go, and have experience with the newly resurfaced tarmac. Weather/track temperature should be the only variable. They were very respectful performance-wise during testing. Also, as with most teams, aero update likely.

[Big Tea]

Whatever the case, in Barcelona, there shouldn't be setup issues. Everybody knows the direction they need to go, and have experience with the newly resurfaced tarmac. Weather/track temperature should be the only variable. They were very respectful performance-wise during testing. Also, as with most teams, aero update likely.

But this applies to all the teams, so less chance of a small team 'lucking into' a superior setup while the others get sidetracked.
Probably the most level playing field of all.