Vettel says VSC delta has a loophole

[AJI]

I care. There's ages until the next race and nothing controversial happened in the last race (apart from VET throwing a certain 2nd place away under VSC)

[Wil992]

here's how i think it works. NB "think", not sure, so don't shoot me.
imagine a simplified scenario 1, where the track is straight.
on a normal lap, at point x, you would be doing 100mph. To slow everyone down by 40% you are now only allowed to be doing 60mph. Assuming these points are taken at a high frequency (ie lots of times/second), then you have a speed allowed at any point on the circuit. BUT, the drivers can't process instantaneous speeds while driving, so it's converted to a time on the dash which says they are over or under the vsc time. if the speed has been above the 60% of normal speed then they are told they are ahead of time, if it's below they are behind their target time. But crucially, the only thing that's actually measured is speed, not distance, that's inferred from the track location.
So, driving a dead straight line, everyone has to reduce their speed and therefore increase their time by 40%.
Now, secnario 2, in a corner.
imagine a notional line running through the middle of the circuit all the round the lap. At every point along that line you have a normal lap speed, even though you are rarely on that actual location as pass side to side of it on the racing line. Each point along that line has a speed associated with it for a normal lap, and therefore a VSC speed calculated from it.
So, if you follow your vsc speed, let's say it's 50 mph through a corner, you will be doing 60% of that speed, 30 mph all the way round the corner in this case, so your vsc speed is fine. but because the distance isn't measured, travelling at 30 mph round the inside of the corner will mean you arrive earlier than if you had traveled at 30 mph round the outside of the same corner.
Obviously in reality it's more complex because there won't be a fixed speed through the corner, it's constantly changing, but the car software will constantly be monitoring target speed vs actual speed and working out a target time on the lap to pass to the driver.
As a result, without ever actually exceeding the vsc speed you would gain time on a driver in front who was driving the racing line by sticking to the inside kerb all the way round.
Does that make sense or am i talking rubbish?

[ENGINE TUNER]

Pure rubbish

The drivers are given a TIME to the next marshaling post, they have have to stay below that TIME regardless if they choose to shortest distance or go max speed and then do a dozen donuts.(theoretically RIC could have made up the time he loss under vsc with his spin if it happened early in the vsc and if nobody passed him)

There is no way to get an advantage, Vettel is either lieing or mistaken.

There are only two work arounds in the system, 1) the pit stop rule which everyone has already known and 2) to go slower than required until right before the vsc ends and then gas it to have more speed then the car ahead of you as it goes green.

If everybody runs the same lap TIME then the gaps that existed b4 the vsc would be the same as after the vsc, this is why the FIA chose TIME rather than speed to regulate vsc.

[iotar__]

Surely letting the drivers dictate their own speed is the problem. Why can't we have a VSC button in the car, sets a speed limit of say.... 100mph. Then when the car is in the yellow flag zone, that drops to the pit lane speed limit, then back up to 100mph once past the danger zone. That way no one can mes around speeding up from the start line down to turn 1 to try and jump someone coming out the pits or vice versa.

- Speed limit on the track is not a good idea for safety reasons, driving to delta is better.
- I still don't understand the problem (my fault I didn't pay attention). Are they even trying to fix it or is it just "life's not fair", "not our fault" crying for the sake of it?
- Imperfect or not VSC is still much better than SC

Edit:
another reason against speed limit - tyres, warming etc.

[Wil992]

Pure rubbish

The drivers are given a TIME to the next marshaling post, they have have to stay below that TIME regardless if they choose to shortest distance or go max speed and then do a dozen donuts.(theoretically RIC could have made up the time he loss under vsc with his spin if it happened early in the vsc and if nobody passed him)

There is no way to get an advantage, Vettel is either lieing or mistaken.

There are only two work arounds in the system, 1) the pit stop rule which everyone has already known and 2) to go slower than required until right before the vsc ends and then gas it to have more speed then the car ahead of you as it goes green.

If everybody runs the same lap TIME then the gaps that existed b4 the vsc would be the same as after the vsc, this is why the FIA chose TIME rather than speed to regulate vsc.

Ok, we're all guessing, not saying my theory is correct, just speculating.

Charlie whting said this:

If it's measured every 50m then any advantage you can get for taking a different line on the track is going to be absolutely minimal.

So, he agrees it's possible to get an advantage, but disagrees about that size of it.

Earliest time of arrival at a fixed point can't be "gamed" by taking a different line, so it seems SV and CW are both saying that's not how the system works?

[NathanOlder]

I still dont get it,

So they are not driving to a Delta ? because if they were, then the line they take is meaningless.

If a driver went between 2 marshal posts (mini sector) too fast (under the minimum allowed time), then they would be penalised.

It cant be down to actual real speed, because often you see 2 cars next to each other as the VSC is launched, and half way around the lap, the gap gets big then small then big ect where they are trying to keep temperatures up. If it was 40% of actual speed (not time) then the drivers would stay on that limit the whole time to minimise the time loss.

This story is very strange.

[AJI]

There was a member that knew a lot about timing and helped confuse us all more on whether Bottas jumped the start last year. @deltaecho I think? Maybe he or she can chime in, because we're getting nothing sensible out of the FIA as usual.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Ok, we're all guessing, not saying my theory is correct, just speculating.

Charlie whting said this:

If it's measured every 50m then any advantage you can get for taking a different line on the track is going to be absolutely minimal.

So, he agrees it's possible to get an advantage, but disagrees about that size of it.

Earliest time of arrival at a fixed point can't be "gamed" by taking a different line, so it seems SV and CW are both saying that's not how the system works?

Just a little joking around with you buddy. Like you said none of us knows their exact system, and they themselves don't seem to know it either. But we have heard about "deltas" and "earliest time of arrival" since the vsc was introduced.

Charlie kinda side stepped or back peddled there first saying no then saying ok maybe a little. But if the system is based on time like I've always heard it described then there is no way to game the system like VET is describing.

[NathanOlder]

Vettels extra paddle means he bypasses the VSC and can speed up undetected. He thinks everyone has this paddle so he claims there is a loophole

[bonjon1979]

Pure rubbish

The drivers are given a TIME to the next marshaling post, they have have to stay below that TIME regardless if they choose to shortest distance or go max speed and then do a dozen donuts.(theoretically RIC could have made up the time he loss under vsc with his spin if it happened early in the vsc and if nobody passed him)

There is no way to get an advantage, Vettel is either lieing or mistaken.

There are only two work arounds in the system, 1) the pit stop rule which everyone has already known and 2) to go slower than required until right before the vsc ends and then gas it to have more speed then the car ahead of you as it goes green.

If everybody runs the same lap TIME then the gaps that existed b4 the vsc would be the same as after the vsc, this is why the FIA chose TIME rather than speed to regulate vsc.

Ok, we're all guessing, not saying my theory is correct, just speculating.

Charlie whting said this:

If it's measured every 50m then any advantage you can get for taking a different line on the track is going to be absolutely minimal.

So, he agrees it's possible to get an advantage, but disagrees about that size of it.

Earliest time of arrival at a fixed point can't be "gamed" by taking a different line, so it seems SV and CW are both saying that's not how the system works?

Okay, here’s my theory.

When there is a VSC there is a warning with a set count down of when the VSC period is due to end.

Let’s say it’s 5 seconds.

I think the teams have worked out that they only need to abide by the VSC rules provided that they don’t pass another timing post before the VSC period ends.

So let’s look at Verstappen, maybe he just passes a timing loop half a second before the VSC period is due to end. A clever computer programme does some clever computing and Verstappen is given an instruction on his dash to floor it because even though the VSC period isn’t officially over it will be finised by the time he actually reaches the next timing beam.

The car in front doesn’t have this advantage as it’s just about to reach that timing beam so can’t get on the gas without breaking VSC rules.

This means that a significant advantage can be gained as getting on the power just a split second early will give you more momentum and speed sooner.

Thoughts?

[TAG]

Vettel said that Hamilton brake checked him in Baku.
Vettel said that tires that had .4 mm less meant they were harder tires. (think about that for a minute)
Vettel said that refusing the HALO would be ignorant and stupid.
Vettel said that Charlie Whiting should go f*ck himself.

Thre's this quote which explains all the crap that Vettel ever says...
“It's correct that I'm a bad loser. Why should I lie? If I was good at losing I wouldn't be in Formula 1. I think it's more honest to act how you really feel than pretending to be the smiling boy who actually isn't in the mood to smile.”

It's hilarious how one guy's inability to ever accept being beaten (which he's perfectly entitled to be) can generate so much fanatical nonsense talk on a technical forum.

[Wil992]

This is a thread specially about Vettel saying vsc has a loophole. In it, people are speculating about what he might have meant by that, or quite possibly why he might have said it. Maybe he’s talking nonesense maybe he’s just having a whine, we don’t know.
But people discussing Vettel’s statement in a thread about vettels statement, seems to me to be a long way from fanatical.
Each to their own I guess.

[strad]

Rather they monitor speed not time.

Well if that is true it seems they can game it the same way NASCAR drivers game the pit road speed limits by speeding between the speed check points.

[Phil]

If they were measuring speed, wouldnt the virtual safety car article in the sporting regulations be worded differently?

[nevill3]

Here is the relevant section from the sporting regs...

40.5 All competing cars must reduce speed and stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at
least once in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track
between each of the FIA light panels). In addition, any driver entering the pit lane whilst the VSC
procedure is in use must be above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at the first safety car line
as he enters the pit lane.
All cars must also be above this minimum time when the FIA light panels change to green (see
40.7 below).
When initiated during a race, the stewards may impose either of the penalties under Article
38.3a), b), c) or d) on any driver who fails to stay above the minimum time as required by the
above.
40.6 With the exception of the cases listed under a) to d) below, no driver may overtake
another car on the track whilst the VSC procedure is in use.

The exceptions are :

a) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track after he has
reached the first safety car line.

b) When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the track
before he reaches the second safety car line.

c) Whilst in the pit entry, pit lane or pit exit a driver may overtake another car which is
also in one of these three areas.

d) If any car slows with an obvious problem.

So the time delta is set by the FIA and sent to the drivers dash, each marshalling sector is between the flashing panels. I do not see how driving "shorter distances" would help.