2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[Sieper]

He did pull the move on Bottas in China, agreed that none of the other top 6 car drivers would have left the door open like Bottas did, but there at least he was next to Bottas, here (in Baku) he was still some way behind Max when Max closed the door. It is due to the extreme speed difference (that both misjudged) that it ended like it did, for misjudging that both share some blame imho.

[Phil]

Are people suggesting that, or are people simply disagreeing (with for example Andres) to put all the blame on Max? Max wasn't in the middle of the road yet at the beginning of the clash, he moved towards the outside when Ric started the fakey, he had to do that in case Ric would be going around the outside to make it as tough as possible for him to go around the outside (but the option was still very much on the table) and in fact Ric had tried like 3 or 4 times around the outside already this race, but even with the momentum advantage, if you go around the outside (and Max makes the radius of that corner big enough) Max has the two next corners (to the left) to defend his position (which is how he successfully fended of Rics earlier attempts). It was Rics decision to then go to the inside, Ric made the call, he was trying to overtake. That Max then closes the door (with, what truthfully was only a slight move, watch the head on camera images to see that) was something Ric apparently did not expect as indeed he was unable to brake in time anymore. I don't agree Max had to let him through, Ric was still more then fully behind.

What you are describing here is called "blocking" and/or "weaving": Max making two moves, both in reaction to what was happening behind him. What do you think happens when a car behind is closing at 10m/s and attempts an overtake on the right side (which has a big gap), only to then see the driver in front move in reaction to that and close that gap, then the driver, now 20+m closer, goes for the inside where there is a new gap and Max moves again and closes that too?

If this was/is a legitimate defensive tactic, then it would pretty much make overtaking impossible, as a defending driver could just use his car as a road-block and react to every movement that happens behind, irrespective of speed differential.

No, Max doesn't have to wave Daniel through, but there should also be (are) limits on how far a driver can go to use himself as a road-block without becoming a danger to himself and others.

Up until the end of 2017, this was clearly defined in the regulations and stipulated that a driver can only make one defensive-move (and then commit to that move). Obviously this means that if Max wants to defend by moving to the outside, then he is free to do that, but then he must stay there. Unfortunately, the FIA decided to remove this article from the sporting regulations and replace it with a more generalized article/paragraph that gives the stewards more freedom in deciding what is dangerous/erratic etc. The one-defensive-move rule is there (e.g. weaving is still prohibited), but the stewards have more leeway under the more generalized formulated regulations.

[Sieper]

I think it is good that the stewards have to judge this case by case. I agree with the outcome as the "weaving" was in fact so minor (have a look at the head on camera and images and then you see that this is a factual statement) that they agreed it was within the realms of normal defending. They too stated (just like me) that both misjudged the speed difference.

You are stating Max makes it impossible to pass him (which in that very same race Ric already successfully did (but round the outside, where it IS possible) but to me this reads more as Max is not allowed to do anything near the edge, calling him a road block when he is just defending his position (again, with meters to spare) is just not a fair way of discussing that and I think already makes clear your standpoint. It was a misjudgment by both as both had I think little experience with this exact scenario (it will remain a rare one, Baku is history) where Ricci was the aggressor, you cannot exclude that from the comparison, Max was the defender here.

[Phil]

I think it is good that the stewards have to judge this case by case. I agree with the outcome as the "weaving" was in fact so minor (have a look at the head on camera and images and then you see that this is a factual statement) that they agreed it was within the realms of normal defending. They too stated (just like me) that both misjudged the speed difference.

Minor or not, movement is movement. That's a fact. Traveling at speeds way beyond 300kmh (83m/s) you expect drivers to make the right judgement calls.

If Daniel had not reacted to even the slightest movement and continued without changing his trajectory and plowed into Max, everyone would be bashing him for not reacting to what is happening on track. Max made a movement to the right, thus the logical assumption of any driver is that Max is closing the outside. Dan therefore HAD TO change his trajectory to not drive into Max. If Max then makes ANOTHER MOVE, what else can he do? Clearly, there wasn't any time, space nor enough downforce to make another change of direction.

I posted a pretty informative video a couple of pages back, highlighting what the difference between reactionary driving is and actually driving defensive well before the car behind you starts making moves. If the car in front reacts to things that is happening BEHIND HIM, you are always going to set yourself up for a potentially very dangerous accident, especially when doing so on a long straight at speeds in excess of 300kmh and a large enough speed differential between cars thanks to DRS and a tow.

[Sieper]

Max made an also minor move to the outside (this was largely preemptive (or at leas at that moment Ric could still make decisions that would have worked, if that is the determining factor) to force Daniel still further outside if he wanted to go for the outside. That would have made the radius of Daniels corner large enough (for Max hopefully) to be able to defend his position in the next 2 lefthanders. Like he successfully did 3 times before and like Ric also made work (getting past Max) the last time before the Pit stop. If Max would have not moved to the outside Ric could have used his superior speed and with the smaller radius then possible would have left Max chanceless and Ric gaining the position. So Max' 1st move was a necessity and totally normal to do. Ric at that point had options, go further round the outside, or try the inside (or break of the attempt altogether) he chose the inside which Max already expected and (whilst still more then fully in front) which he reacted to. Max too was doing 320 kmh (ric 340) so Max too was travelling a distance (20kmh deficit equates to 5,5m a second). The difference in distance is not so big as to be impossible to do anything, but due to the heavy loss of downforce (ric did react) his braking did simply not have much impact anymore, he slid already way further then 5,5 meters before he bumped into Max.

Could both have judged this better, yes, is this the sole responsibility of Max, absolutely not. But I believe we had this discussion before. There are just a few individuals that keep stirring it up.

[Phil]

Could both have judged this better, yes, ...

I'm very curious; what could Dan have done better, apart from simply not attempting an overtake? Run me through it.

[Sieper]

Attempting the outside again. Like 3 times before and like he made work the last time around.

[Phil]

How? Why? At that specific instance, Max is already 'covering the outside'. You are making assumptions based on some amazing foresight about what Max is about to do or not. How do you know what Max is about to do? That is precisely the problem with reactive movement. Max wasn't doing pre-emptive-movement, he was reacting to what was happening behind him.

Again: At that point when you are saying "attempting the outside again" - Daniel was already doing that. He was moving towards the outside up until the point when Max also started moving to the outside.

Freeze here. What is happening? Both Daniel and Max's car have a trajectory pointing towards the outside line. The gap to the right is closing. A gap on the inside is opening. How can he know if Max intends to stay on that trajectory and continue towards the right? Or if Max will leave some space? Or if Max suddenly changes his mind and turns into the left? There's no way Dan can know what Max will do. The only thing he does know in that specific instance is that both cars (his and Max's) are pointing towards the right and that the gap there is closing and there's one opening on the inside.

Two options here:

Option A:
If Dan stays on his path and Max does too, they'll crash. If that happens, everyone will be saying "duh, why didn't you go for the inside there was 10m of space there".

Option B:
He goes to the inside, there where that big fat gap is just opening. All or nothing. He's already that close that he has to make a decision. A or B. A or B. He goes for B. Boom, max sees this and changes his trajectory AGAIN. Game-over.

Do you see now how and why reactive movement is dangerous?

[Sieper]

At the freeze here moment Max is only slightly covering of the outside, like I explained 3 times today to force Daniel if he makes an attempt to make it a bigger radius corner. like also happened in all 3 earlier attempts (also on the one try that Ric did make it stick). The only viable option was a fourth time around the outside. Don't risk it all with thinking you have dummied someone and going for the inside, that is just not possible wit these speeds unless Max leaves the door wide open, well he didn't. Nor would any of the other top 3 teams have done (with the exception of maybe Bottas).

[epo]

At the freeze here moment Max is only slightly covering of the outside, like I explained 3 times today to force Daniel if he makes an attempt to make it a bigger radius corner. like also happened in all 3 earlier attempts (also on the one try that Ric did make it stick). The only viable option was a fourth time around the outside. Don't risk it all with thinking you have dummied someone and going for the inside, that is just not possible wit these speeds unless Max leaves the door wide open, well he didn't. Nor would any of the other top 3 teams have done (with the exception of maybe Bottas).

And Raikkonen

Also he wasn't faster during the race, just the tow and DRS and Max been held up by dirty air of Hamilton gave him the opportunity. Max is almost always faster in race, so his frustration with the pitstop and wanted to get ahead of him made him to eager. Max simply doesn't let you pass, he is a real racer but not perfect and yes makes mistakes but he is fun to watch, always action on the track with Max.

[Edax]

If it wasn’t between teammates I would say yes. Irrespective of what VES did or didn’t do the descision to launch a complex overtake on his teammate late in the race when the only thing to be gained was bragging rights was not wise.

I wouldnt call it “launching a complex overtake”. He was driving at a much higher speed due to less drag (tow) and DRS. Essentially, across that long straight, he was much faster, gaining quickly.

Yes but he was also running out of straight fast and he was still not alongside VES. Irrespective of the actions of Max he would always have to make the actual overtake under braking from behind. That speed differential is gone when you press the brakes, From there it is a game of chicken on the brakes.

Ricciardo is one of the latest of the late brakers, so I have reasonable confidence that he would have made the corner himself. But we’ve seen with vettel that it is not straightforward. But the chance was pretty big that he would need all the road available to get the thing stopped, which likely would have implied sending VES for a detour into the runoff area or worse.

That is why I call it complex. I think most teammates would have opted to bail out long before the starting line, and concentrated on a better exit the next round, so they could get the job done before even reaching the braking zone. Why take the risk.

[strad]

Don't you think this is ancient history now?

[Andres125sx]

Max movement was the perfect definition of bloking, wich is moving in reaction to the chasing car, more than once, yet some people keep putting some reponsability on Daniel

Phil perfectly explained how absurd is calling that a complex overtake, his speed difference thanks to DRS and the tow was way way more than enough to try. Any F1 driver not trying to pass with that speed difference does not deserve a F1 wheel IMHO

Daniel was stupid to make the move, I know he wants to improve his market value by beating Max but that divebomb action and his last race already lowered it again. And Max is defending, IMHO a driver who just lets everyone pass easily does not deserve a F1 wheel

Letting everyone pass and blocking are two opposites, nobody is asking Max to let him pass, only to not block his team mate, or any other driver, basically because that´s banned and is pretty dangerous as we all saw


In previous laps Max closed the door at the inside, letting Daniel to try the outside because it´s not possible to pass at the outside if the overtake is not finished before the corner. But this time Daniel speed advantage was much higher, Max realized and simply tried to block Daniel so he had to slow down, but that is banned!!

I seriously can´t get how people is defending such a blocking, if that is allowed then overtaking is imposible, plain and simple, any driver in front only need to look at his mirrors and mirror any movement from the driver behind and he will keep position forever, wich is exactly what Max did.

That´s the reason blocking is banned. But we all know FIA, their agenda is more important than the rulebook, not first time, and surely not last one either

[hemichromis]

Indeed, far from adding excitement, if all drivers did it we would see no overtaking.

[strad]

any driver in front only need to look at his mirrors and mirror any movement from the driver behind and he will keep position forever, wich is exactly what Max did.

He moved once to block and then back to the racing line as is allowed.
You can't make it more than it was just cause you don't like him.