Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[gruntguru]

People are suspicious because the jump in engine performance is suspicious. It might be perfectly legitimate or it might not. Only certain individuals at Ferrari know so the rest of the world is reduced to speculate based on observation and what little measurement can be carried out. We haven't seen this sort of jump before. We haven't seen Renault or Honda closing up. We haven't seen Mercedes losing a lot of engine-related pace.

A jump in performance is of course due to a technical breakthrough - whether legal or illegal. eg did Ferrari have TJI in their early engines?

[Just_a_fan]

Just using more battery energy than the rules allow is not a technical breakthrough. Neither is using more fuel than the rules allow. It's straightforward cheating. Now, if they've developed a way to use a rules-compliant amount of energy more efficiently, then that is a technical breakthrough. Sadly, it sounds like they have done the former, not the latter.

[Big Mangalhit]

As it has been pointed out, there could be a correlation between Sassi starting at Mercedes a few months ago and all the measures and scrutiny seemingly targeted at Ferrari.

Sassi left Ferrari in July 2017 and joined Mercedes in Desember. Would the power unit team not still be focused on the 2017 PU rather than a full scale effort on the 2018 PU at that point? Just speculation on me part!

I was also wondering, is it really possible that no-one believes that Ferrari just put in extra effort and made a big step in PU development?

If it was just putting in a bit more effort I'm surprised that Ferrari didn't put in some extra effort before now. It seems odd that they decided to perform poorly for several years before bothering to make the sort of leap which is unprecedented in the current engine era.

People are suspicious because the jump in engine performance is suspicious. It might be perfectly legitimate or it might not. Only certain individuals at Ferrari know so the rest of the world is reduced to speculate based on observation and what little measurement can be carried out. We haven't seen this sort of jump before. We haven't seen Renault or Honda closing up. We haven't seen Mercedes losing a lot of engine-related pace.

They did put the effort before obviously. The biggest jump in engine performance was from 2014 (216pts; 4th; 2 podiums)->2015 (428pt; 2nd; 16 podiums) not last year to this year. Since 2015 they have had at least consistent presences in the podium.

[Big Mangalhit]

Just using more battery energy than the rules allow is not a technical breakthrough. Neither is using more fuel than the rules allow. It's straightforward cheating. Now, if they've developed a way to use a rules-compliant amount of energy more efficiently, then that is a technical breakthrough. Sadly, it sounds like they have done the former, not the latter.

Agreed, using more fuel or energy than allowed is straight cheating but can you tell me why do you think it sounds more like the former (cheating). Based on what evidences (can be rumours i'm just curious); how it would work (in your idea) and which rule would it be against (e.g. like breaking the MGU-K->battery route limit)?

[godlameroso]

I doubt any cheating is going on, there are ways around the 4MJ from ES to MGU-K. If energy can be shuffled around one way it can be shuffled the other.

[LM10]

I doubt any cheating is going on, there are ways around the 4MJ from ES to MGU-K. If energy can be shuffled around one way it can be shuffled the other.

So you mean Ferrari might be using more than 4MJ without cheating? If yes, do you think the investigations of FIA will lead to other teams also finding out this "trick" and implement in their concept?

[godlameroso]

I hope so, no matter what happens they're not going to be able to just implement it in a race or two.

[dans79]

I doubt any cheating is going on, there are ways around the 4MJ from ES to MGU-K. If energy can be shuffled around one way it can be shuffled the other.

The work around is sending it to the mgu-h, and I think everyone is doing that at this point.

If the MGU-K is directly receiving more than 4MJ per lap, it's cheating.

[godlameroso]

I doubt any cheating is going on, there are ways around the 4MJ from ES to MGU-K. If energy can be shuffled around one way it can be shuffled the other.

The work around is sending it to the mgu-h, and I think everyone is doing that at this point.

If the MGU-K is directly receiving more than 4MJ per lap, it's cheating.

That's not what the regulations say, they say that the energy store cannot send more than 4MJ to the MGU-K. There are unlimited energy paths to the MGU-K, one of those is the MGU-H, the other is in the engine ancillaries, and the ICE itself.

The turbo itself receives energy from the engine to power itself and the MGU-H, and the turbo can only give energy to the air entering the engine, so it doesn't create more power in the engine directly. Maybe Ferrari has found a way to supplement ES -> MGU-K deployment via all the other means(ice/ancillaries/MGU-H/pressure charging system)

[Just_a_fan]

If (and I stress IF) the rumours are true that Ferrari gave in on the rule changes because of the FIA's findings about the ES, that suggests that Ferrari weren't "being clever", they were cheating and were caught. The FIA then said "give in on the rule changes or we'll take this public". Ferrari said ok to the rule changes. Enough said.

[LM10]

If (and I stress IF) the rumours are true that Ferrari gave in on the rule changes because of the FIA's findings about the ES, that suggests that Ferrari weren't "being clever", they were cheating and were caught. The FIA then said "give in on the rule changes or we'll take this public". Ferrari said ok to the rule changes. Enough said.

Wasn't also Mercedes initially against? In particular the elimination of MGU-H for 2021.

[PlatinumZealot]

I told you guys breaking the 4MJ can be done way before this detail came out.

[J.A.W.]

Ferrari are essentially doing a "Reverse Extra-Harvest."

Instead of only bypassing the 4MJ charging limit allowed from MGUK, via the MGUH, like every manufacturer does, Ferrari are also going from battery to MGUH to MGUK using this method in reverse.

You heard it here first!

I think you need to re-read my post on this, in the Honda PU thread you participated in, from Jan 1st, because you read it there first. ->> viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18874&start=12540#p733495 <<-

I said there in that post that the whole system is reversible. I'm not sure many people on here (exceptions: Mr Potatohead, GruntGuru, some other folk) really understood what I was trying to convey.

"I told you guys...you heard it here 1st!"

Deja vu - all over again?

[roon]

If (and I stress IF) the rumours are true that Ferrari gave in on the rule changes because of the FIA's findings about the ES, that suggests that Ferrari weren't "being clever", they were cheating and were caught. The FIA then said "give in on the rule changes or we'll take this public". Ferrari said ok to the rule changes. Enough said.

Is there precident for the FIA keeping secrets for Ferrari?

[Just_a_fan]

Is there precident for the FIA keeping secrets for Ferrari?

There might be but as they're secret we don't know. Same applies to any team, of course.