Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dans79]

That's what I also don't understand. It's like the rule makers and officials seem to look at Mercedes as the "good boy" team or something like that.

That's just your perception!

[saviour stivala]

No matter one’s imagination stretches/twists-it/pushes-it, Max electric power contribution to the drivetrain (contribution to ICE power) permitted is 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. And please don’t contaminate this site with what those at SKY feeds their sheep like followers and that includes their side kick/advisor the number one speculator/conspirator MH.
People tend to believe conspiracy theories in order to be in the know/to have some access to hidden knowledge that can give them a sense of control. It is unbelievable that some go as far as to believe that the rule makers will police/measure what is permitted (electrical power) anywhere other than at the MGU-H which is the final point of electrical power flow to the drivetrain.

You are right the rule makers do police energy flow, this is what the regs say on the ERS power unit flow diagram :


Control of Energy Management:
- One sensor is connected to measure all electrical energy into and out of the Energy Store
- One sensor is connected to measure all electrical energy into and out of the MGU-K

But the flow diagram shows two connections to the MGU-K, one from the ES and one from the MGU-H, and similarly 2 connections to the ES, one from the MGU-K and one from the MGU-H. Given the two measurement points and 4 connections their must be some process that discriminates between the energy flow that is constrained, between the the ES and MGU-K ( 4 MJ in the case we are discussing) and the energy flow that is unconstrained, which is anything passing through the MGU-H.

This means the energy flow isn’t measured directly, it is an indirect process, it somehow has to ignore the flows to and from the MGU-H, and in that case there is possibly an opportunity to exploit that process to exceed the limits envisioned. Perhaps Ferrari, and others, are able to do just that. We don’t, and can’t, know because the regs don’t say how the measurement process works.

I think that the 33 second figure was based on the assumption that all energy to the MGU-K would come from the ES. It is believed that when Honda first started they did just that and as a consequence could deploy for much less of the lap than their rivals.

As for your reference to SKY. It is you who is repeating the misunderstanding about MGU-K operation time not I.

I have not down voted your post. I hope you will reconsider and correct it.

Maximum electric power in addition to that of the ICE that can be transferred to the drivetrain is 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. This electric power transfer to the drivetrain is only possible “through” the MGU-K. The rule makers police that max electric power output and time at the MGU-K. some teams are able to use electric power assist all around the lap senza lifting and braking points, but that doesn’t mean they are exceeding the max permitted electric power. The rule makers also police the MGU-K input into the ES/BATTERY. The maximum stipulated here is 2mj per lap. The rule makers are not concerned with policing what is unlimited to or from. Neither are they concerned with the capacity of the ES/BATTERY. Even just mentioning those at SKY will conteminate this site.

[henry]

....Earlier exchange ....


Maximum electric power in addition to that of the ICE that can be transferred to the drivetrain is 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. This electric power transfer to the drivetrain is only possible “through” the MGU-K. The rule makers police that max electric power output and time at the MGU-K. some teams are able to use electric power assist all around the lap senza lifting and braking points, but that doesn’t mean they are exceeding the max permitted electric power. The rule makers also police the MGU-K input into the ES/BATTERY. The maximum stipulated here is 2mj per lap. The rule makers are not concerned with policing what is unlimited to or from. Neither are they concerned with the capacity of the ES/BATTERY. Even just mentioning those at SKY will conteminate this site.

Again the bolded text above is right. But the tricky part is that the energy flows that are unlimited are mixed with the energy flows that are regulated before they are measured. It is possible that the process that disentangles them can be “gamed” just as the fuel flow rate was thought to be abused by storage mechanisms downstream of the flow rate sensor. The FIA regulated/policed those abuses.

You are still wrong about the 33 seconds. But this is the wrong thread for a general discussion on the details of energy flow.

[saviour stivala]

....Earlier exchange ....


Maximum electric power in addition to that of the ICE that can be transferred to the drivetrain is 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. This electric power transfer to the drivetrain is only possible “through” the MGU-K. The rule makers police that max electric power output and time at the MGU-K. some teams are able to use electric power assist all around the lap senza lifting and braking points, but that doesn’t mean they are exceeding the max permitted electric power. The rule makers also police the MGU-K input into the ES/BATTERY. The maximum stipulated here is 2mj per lap. The rule makers are not concerned with policing what is unlimited to or from. Neither are they concerned with the capacity of the ES/BATTERY. Even just mentioning those at SKY will conteminate this site.

Again the bolded text above is right. But the tricky part is that the energy flows that are unlimited are mixed with the energy flows that are regulated before they are measured. It is possible that the process that disentangles them can be “gamed” just as the fuel flow rate was thought to be abused by storage mechanisms downstream of the flow rate sensor. The FIA regulated/policed those abuses.

You are still wrong about the 33 seconds. But this is the wrong thread for a general discussion on the details of energy flow.

FIA measurements/policing are taken at MGU-K output (power) and (time). I do not know if this is the right thread or not, but I stand with what I said re the 33.33 deployment time. also there is another post with more details to you which is still under consideration by moderator, or at least so I was told.

[Tommy Cookers]

unless this has changed .......

FIA measurements and policing (of K) are taken at the K (DC) input
(126.3 kW) DC power is allowed on the basis that at 95% DC-to-crankshaft efficiency 120 kW will be so added to ICE power

there is no limit of duration of K action to 33.3 seconds - K power delivery is not fixed at 120 kW

[Skippon]

MGU-K power is not measured directly at the MGU-K (and like for MGU-H). It is measured at the DC link input to the inverter rather than the motor phases themselves (or as mechanical power). This is also the reason why the fIA allow slightly greater than 120kW (to allow for converter inefficiency).

[trinidefender]

....Earlier exchange ....


Maximum electric power in addition to that of the ICE that can be transferred to the drivetrain is 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. This electric power transfer to the drivetrain is only possible “through” the MGU-K. The rule makers police that max electric power output and time at the MGU-K. some teams are able to use electric power assist all around the lap senza lifting and braking points, but that doesn’t mean they are exceeding the max permitted electric power. The rule makers also police the MGU-K input into the ES/BATTERY. The maximum stipulated here is 2mj per lap. The rule makers are not concerned with policing what is unlimited to or from. Neither are they concerned with the capacity of the ES/BATTERY. Even just mentioning those at SKY will conteminate this site.

Again the bolded text above is right. But the tricky part is that the energy flows that are unlimited are mixed with the energy flows that are regulated before they are measured. It is possible that the process that disentangles them can be “gamed” just as the fuel flow rate was thought to be abused by storage mechanisms downstream of the flow rate sensor. The FIA regulated/policed those abuses.

You are still wrong about the 33 seconds. But this is the wrong thread for a general discussion on the details of energy flow.

FIA measurements/policing are taken at MGU-K output (power) and (time). I do not know if this is the right thread or not, but I stand with what I said re the 33.33 deployment time. also there is another post with more details to you which is still under consideration by moderator, or at least so I was told.

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.



This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

[PlatinumZealot]

Some of these people do not read the facts.
No one has come forward with the rules opposing my belief that the loophole allows more than 4MJ.
Forget about the upper and lower battery state of charge this does not limit the temporal flow of energy.

[trinidefender]

Some of these people do not read the facts.
No one has come forward with the rules opposing my belief that the loophole allows more than 4MJ.
Forget about the upper and lower battery state of charge this does not limit the temporal flow of energy.

What loophole is that?

[Tommy Cookers]

I wonder what 4 MJ/lap means (if it doesn't mean 4 MJ/lap)
and 300 kJ stored in ancillaries - does this mean the energy stored in the H rotation is limited to 300 kJ ?

maybe the diagram doesn't entirely match the written rules

[dans79]

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

Now look on the right side of the MGUK in the graphic and notice the "Max +/-120KW", No matter how much electricity you feed in/out of the MGUK, there is a hard limit as to how much power can pass through it form/to the other side.

The entire premise of this rumor/suspicion is that the FIA is enforcing the 120KW limit indirectly by monitoring the electricity flow into the MGUK. if Ferrari is playing with the wiring in any way to fool the sensors, that is clearly cheating and a violation of the rules.

[trinidefender]

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

Now look on the right side of the MGUK in the graphic and notice the "Max +/-120KW", No matter how much electricity you feed in/out of the MGUK, there is a hard limit as to how much power can pass through it form/to the other side.

The entire premise of this rumor/suspicion is that the FIA is enforcing the 120KW limit indirectly by monitoring the electricity flow into the MGUK. if Ferrari is playing with the wiring in any way to fool the sensors, that is clearly cheating and a violation of the rules.

You are confusing power and energy. Yes there is a limit of +/- 120kW for the MGU-K. That is power which has a hard limit (supposedly).

The limit of 4MJ is an energy limit and only applies between the ERS and the MGU-K.

Look up the difference between power and energy if you are still confused.

[dans79]

You are confusing power and energy. Yes there is a limit of +/- 120kW for the MGU-K. That is power which has a hard limit (supposedly).

The limit of 4MJ is an energy limit and only applies between the ERS and the MGU-K.

Look up the difference between power and energy if you are still confused.

I'm not confusing them at all, in fact i'm quite familiar with them. However for this problem all anyone needs to know is J/s = W.

[trinidefender]

You are confusing power and energy. Yes there is a limit of +/- 120kW for the MGU-K. That is power which has a hard limit (supposedly).

The limit of 4MJ is an energy limit and only applies between the ERS and the MGU-K.

Look up the difference between power and energy if you are still confused.

I'm not confusing them at all, in fact i'm quite familiar with them. However for this problem all anyone needs to know is J/s = W.

The definition of power is work divided by time
Power = work/time

watt = joule/second

MGU-K power limit is 120 kW = 120,000 W
ES to MGU-K energy limit is 4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

Therefore:
4000000 = 120000/S
S = 4000000/120000
S = 33.333 seconds

That's where the time limit comes from that the previous poster came from. However by allowing unlimited energy transfer between the MGU-H to the MGU-K then the MGU-K can work for much longer.

Let's say that the MGU-H can provide 60 kW to the MGU-K when operating in maximum continuous self sustaining mode that means that the ES can supply 60 kW to the MGU-K to make up 120 kW.

Using the same 4 MJ limit for the ES to the MGU-K.

Therefore:
60 kW = 60,000 W
4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

4000000 = 60000/S
S = 4000000/60000
S = 66.667 seconds

In conclusion, while the power that the MGU-K can provide to the rear wheels remains at 120 kW, the MGU-K can provide it for a much longer period of time.

[saviour stivala]

Again the bolded text above is right. But the tricky part is that the energy flows that are unlimited are mixed with the energy flows that are regulated before they are measured. It is possible that the process that disentangles them can be “gamed” just as the fuel flow rate was thought to be abused by storage mechanisms downstream of the flow rate sensor. The FIA regulated/policed those abuses.

You are still wrong about the 33 seconds. But this is the wrong thread for a general discussion on the details of energy flow.

FIA measurements/policing are taken at MGU-K output (power) and (time). I do not know if this is the right thread or not, but I stand with what I said re the 33.33 deployment time. also there is another post with more details to you which is still under consideration by moderator, or at least so I was told.

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

MGU-K to ICE max 120 kw, also MGU-K to engine ancillaries max 120kw.