Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Didn't AMuS reported that FIA inspected that and everything was fine?

This must be a separate but still related issue. The focus has shifted to the turbocharger, specifically.

It will be interesting to see where this goes, because getting oil into the engine via the turbo seems like it would be strait forward and easy to do.

Just a matter of sizing the feed and drain lines for the oil.

[trinidefender]

This may be the loop hole - in the diagram there is 120kW and not clearly specified...
- one can interpret it as the maximum energy flow e.g. 120kW of el. energy => 33second
- or you can interpret it as the 120kW el. motor/generator (you can not have 150kW MGU-K) and with the unlimited flow you can power this 120kW motor/generator as long as you have energy for it...

No that part is fairly clear.

120kw is a power rating. Equivalent to about 163 metric HP (At 95% efficiency) which can be added or subtracted from the drivetrain.

The 4MJ limit is an energy limit and only applies from the ES to the MGU-K. The MGU-H can provide extra energy to extend this 33.333 seconds (at 120kW) for as long as it can provide extra energy.

totally out of order, totaaly Misinterpreting ERS rules and regulations, just speculating.

It isn't. Honda have openly stated that they do this. I don't understand how you are trying to refute a point that one of the PU manufacturers openly say they do.

[trinidefender]

This may be the loop hole - in the diagram there is 120kW and not clearly specified...
- one can interpret it as the maximum energy flow e.g. 120kW of el. energy => 33second
- or you can interpret it as the 120kW el. motor/generator (you can not have 150kW MGU-K) and with the unlimited flow you can power this 120kW motor/generator as long as you have energy for it...

No that part is fairly clear.

120kw is a power rating. Equivalent to about 163 metric HP (At 95% efficiency) which can be added or subtracted from the drivetrain.

The 4MJ limit is an energy limit and only applies from the ES to the MGU-K. The MGU-H can provide extra energy to extend this 33.333 seconds (at 120kW) for as long as it can provide extra energy.

totally out of order, totaaly Misinterpreting ERS rules and regulations, just speculating.

Maybe this will clear it up. Here is the official F1 website with the full regulations linked if you would like to read them.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... d_ERS.html

"A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be transferred from the ES to the MGU-K (and then in turn to the drivetrain).

A maximum of 2MJ per lap can be transferred from the MGU-K to the ES.

An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

That is a quote from the website. Is this settled now?

[imightbewrong]

@ imightbewrong

Honda are doing this 'extra harvest' and we've seen the telemetry
some posters made calculations
it's in the Honda thread
there's quite a lot of energy in the rotation at 100000 rpm

just remember this rotation stores energy but isn't an Energy Store because the FIA pretends it isn't
just remember that fuel is burnt to produce directly electrical energy that the FIA pretends is recovered waste energy

So fancy throttling handling by the ECU allowed then? e.g when at 50% throttle, actually have 60% throttle to the ICE but use the extra 10% to drive the K to store that energy in the H? Obviously uses more fuel but is useful for push-laps..

I can see how trying to implement stuff like this could result in driveabilty issues..

[henry]

@ imightbewrong

Honda are doing this 'extra harvest' and we've seen the telemetry
some posters made calculations
it's in the Honda thread
there's quite a lot of energy in the rotation at 100000 rpm

just remember this rotation stores energy but isn't an Energy Store because the FIA pretends it isn't
just remember that fuel is burnt to produce directly electrical energy that the FIA pretends is recovered waste energy

So fancy throttling handling by the ECU allowed then? e.g when at 50% throttle, actually have 60% throttle to the ICE but use the extra 10% to drive the K to store that energy in the H? Obviously uses more fuel but is useful for push-laps..

I can see how trying to implement stuff like this could result in driveabilty issues..

Yes and No.

They do as you say, but the output from the K goes first to the ES, up to the 2 MJ limit per lap. Thereafter they can send the energy to the ES via the H. The H only “stores” the energy for a very short time, in the Honda example they say they switch the process at 20 to 40 Hz. So the H stores the energy for a few milliseconds.

[imightbewrong]

Yes and No.

They do as you say, but the output from the K goes first to the ES, up to the 2 MJ limit per lap. Thereafter they can send the energy to the ES via the H. The H only “stores” the energy for a very short time, in the Honda example they say they switch the process at 20 to 40 Hz. So the H stores the energy for a few milliseconds.

Thanks for the info!

During that K>E>ES phase it must be difficult to implement it in such a way that it doesn't incur oscillation in the torque to the wheels. Since you can't dump any more energy to the ES directly from the K, and you switch the H between drive and generation, then you must also switch the K from generation and free running, and then you must also switch the ICE from extra drive to actual requested drive (by the drivers throttle position) in order to not get oscillations (and I expect the switching is not seamless so some limited oscillation in torque output will occur).

Or maybe this extra harvest is such a small percentage of the total torque that it is not noticeable for the driver.. I haven't thought at all about the relative powers involved, just speculating.

[Tommy Cookers]

what I usually say at this point ....

oscillations at 20 Hz wouldn't propagate to the tyre contact patch or driver
and the size of the oscillations will be small
and they don't want to present the ICE with boost that varies so the rpm oscillation will need to be small

looking in these ways oscillations at eg 2 Hz would be bad

[henry]

Yes and No.

They do as you say, but the output from the K goes first to the ES, up to the 2 MJ limit per lap. Thereafter they can send the energy to the ES via the H. The H only “stores” the energy for a very short time, in the Honda example they say they switch the process at 20 to 40 Hz. So the H stores the energy for a few milliseconds.

Thanks for the info!

During that K>E>ES phase it must be difficult to implement it in such a way that it doesn't incur oscillation in the torque to the wheels. Since you can't dump any more energy to the ES directly from the K, and you switch the H between drive and generation, then you must also switch the K from generation and free running, and then you must also switch the ICE from extra drive to actual requested drive (by the drivers throttle position) in order to not get oscillations (and I expect the switching is not seamless so some limited oscillation in torque output will occur).

Or maybe this extra harvest is such a small percentage of the total torque that it is not noticeable for the driver.. I haven't thought at all about the relative powers involved, just speculating.

Over in the Honda PU thread, where this was discussed, it was suggested that the inertia and flexibility in the drive train would smooth out the forces at the wheels. I believe Honda said they use it at the end of straight so driveability wouldn’t be much of an issue.

And to bring this back on topic, some are suggesting the reverse route, ES>H>K, is that being used by Ferrari to circumvent the 4 MJ/lap restriction. I can’t really see how this would be classed as rule bending since it is explicitly allowed by the regulations.

[roon]

Re: oil use. Oil introduction at the compressor shaft, perhaps. If not simply return lines from the turbo routed back into the previous injection system. It still hasn't come out what type of injection or controlled leaking was used for oil burning, regardless of the team.

Re: motors. There's no limit to H size/power, correct? This flywheel/engine brake/air motor/ancillary K power supply has such development potential. Maybe that's why it's ommission was proposed for future regs.

Re: exhaust. The wastegates could be in near constant use beyond pressure control. There is no definition for the origination point of the wastegates in the regs. If they are fully or partially downstream of the turbine, this would still have a pressure charging control effect per the regs. It would also allow a VGT effect, legally. Wastegate valving and pathways also undefined. For example, route all exhaust gases post turbine through the smaller wastegate pipes for extra engine braking.

Ferrari were implied in using the wastegates toward aero effect. Routing most or all exhaust gases through the wastegate pipes would provide higher velocity exhaust gas under the RW.

[saviour stivala]

I think a lot of the arguing on this site would be calmed down if we always used words like allegedly when referring to rumours that a team is cheating. Because I think that doesn't sit well with some fans especially when there is not one bit of evidence. It also creates a confusion because if repeated enough it almost becomes truth like so many misconceptions perpetrated in this forum just by repetition.

.
I think that is a very good point.

Plus one for all that.

[LM10]

Since Ferrari has been the only team being accused of illegaly burning more oil for weeks now, I will put this here. A new article from AMuS:

It was just a suspicion. The smoking Ferrari engines made the opponents suspicious. Was everything right there, or did Ferrari find a way around the oil consumption limit of 0.6 liters per 100 kilometers? And if so, how? The engineers racked their brains on how to outsmart Article 20 of the Technical Regulations. Until one had the idea, one could press the oil into the combustion chambers via a "leaky" gasket in the turbocharger's supercharger, but not count it for consumption because the turbocharger is by definition not an engine.

On May 14, Mercedes sent a request to the FIA. The engineers in Brixworth wanted to know if the oil consumed in the turbocharger counts to 0.6 liters. And if so, would the combined consumption of lubricant in the engine and turbocharger have to be seen within consumption limits?

The answer from Charlie Whiting came immediately. In a letter to the four engine manufacturers, the FIA race director made it clear that all oils used in the power unit fall under Article 20. From the point of view of the World Association, the turbocharger belongs to the power unit. So the burnt oil in the internal combustion engine and the turbocharger are within total consumption.

The shot of Mercedes was obviously directed against Ferrari. But it missed it's goal. We hear from circles of the FIA that none of the four engine manufacturers has to rebuild their oil system or the turbocharger. If someone had tricked in this area, they would have had to modify the turbocharger immediately. Neither of the controls found a separate oil circuit for the turbocharger.
Now this topic is off the table. The battery affair, however, is still ongoing. But it should be clarified in the course of the weekend.

[Just_a_fan]

There is still the suspicion about the battery/electrical system to be dealt with, as mentioned at the bottom of that quote.

It would be nice to just have a season where all of the cars are "clean" and there is none of this to-and-fro with "clarification requests" etc. Sadly, it's the nature of the beast I suppose.

[Big Mangalhit]

There is still the suspicion about the battery/electrical system to be dealt with, as mentioned at the bottom of that quote.

It would be nice to just have a season where all of the cars are "clean" and there is none of this to-and-fro with "clarification requests" etc. Sadly, it's the nature of the beast I suppose.

I'm not naive to think that the cars are "clean" but I think these clarifications will happen regardless of the "cleanliness" of the car. The car in front will always have everything scrutinized and accused by the others. RB dominant years was cold blowing flexiwings etc...
Merc had first FRIC then tyre valves to control pressure below the minimum and trick suspention etc...
Now it's Ferrari turn with engine oil, mirrors (i mean the 3 little dents they had to add), battery, blowing the wing (something Renault seems to be doing in a more obvious way with the max angle on the exhaust and the heat resistant material on the wing itself).

I guess this is part of having the fastest car (or close to fastest). But doesn't mean that they are all true cheats, some probably but sometimes it seems for every podium you get, you also get a ton of rumours implying you are cheating. Which I'm not complaining, I kinda like it, it keeps the forum alive and everybody coming with nice ideas on how they could be doing it.

[dans79]

The shot of Mercedes was obviously directed against Ferrari. But it missed it's goal. We hear from circles of the FIA that none of the four engine manufacturers has to rebuild their oil system or the turbocharger. If someone had tricked in this area, they would have had to modify the turbocharger immediately. Neither of the controls found a separate oil circuit for the turbocharger.

That article is incredibly naive. If a team is blatantly cheating or dancing around the grey areas, they are going to have a way to quickly stop doing it that doesn't severely hinder them.

Off the top of my head.

• Tell the drivers not to use a given engine mode, as that is the only mode that uses the questionable practice.
• Update the engine mappings (like they do almost every race) to stop using the questionable practice.
• Change something outside of the FIA regulated/monitored systems to stop the questionable practice. for example the size of an oil line or the flow rate or pressure of a pump.

[AnotherAlex]

it keeps the forum alive and everybody coming with nice ideas on how they could be doing it.

Not just the forum; it sounds like the Mercedes engineers think the only way of achieving Mercedes-like levels of power is by cheating and they're trying (and failing) to figure out how Ferrari have managed it.
(Their fallback option, if they can't figure it out by the summer, will be to poach another of Ferrari's senior power train engineers.)