Formula E

[NL_Fer]

I love formula e, but it feels a little odd, that there is no tyre degradation and hardly any loss of downforce when a wing breaks or detaches from a car.

[AJI]

...We're also losing bonus points for fastest lap, to be replaced by the eco-driver of the race award.

We're almost at the point where the driver who finishes last gets a special encouragement award...

[strad]

Don't get me wrong I'll most likely be dead before it happens and if not they will most certainly lose this and many long time fans. However I think the time will come where they ban my Mustang or other gasoline powered cars.
The move is afoot. Reference VW and others attempt to move us to EVs.

[J.A.W.]

Don't get me wrong I'll most likely be dead before it happens and if not they will most certainly lose this and many long time fans. However I think the time will come where they ban my Mustang or other gasoline powered cars.
The move is afoot. Reference VW and others attempt to move us to EVs.

In the EU, maybe strad..

But 'never in America!' - even if you have to run that 'stang - on a backyard blend of.. moonshine 'n' butanol..

[jjn9128]

...We're also losing bonus points for fastest lap, to be replaced by the eco-driver of the race award.

We're almost at the point where the driver who finishes last gets a special encouragement award...

Hmmmmm not sure... they have to finish in the top 10 to get the fastest lap bonus, I imagine the same will apply for the eco-driver. Otherwise as you say, no hopers will go for a Sunday drive, which among other things would just be dangerous.

[mzso]

IMO, if the visceral sensation - the 'sound & fury', if you will - of ICE based racing goes, so will much of the fanbase interest..

I doubt it. All you need is fast cars and entertaining racing.

Sooner or later people will look down on the noisy ICE cars of the past with the same contempt a good chunk of them do on electrics' today. People can't see further than their nose.

[Manoah2u]

Don't get me wrong I'll most likely be dead before it happens and if not they will most certainly lose this and many long time fans. However I think the time will come where they ban my Mustang or other gasoline powered cars.
The move is afoot. Reference VW and others attempt to move us to EVs.

there's already environmental bans on vehicles in many EU cities.
diesel cars built before a certain year, or gasoline cars before a certain year or CO2 output, are banned from city areas and if you proceed to go through, you will be get some heavy fines.

it's a matter of time. by 2025, or perhaps even earlier, the NL's wants to ban selling of cars running on gasoline, diesel, etc, and only will allow selling of electric cars. whether that actually will happen i don't know but i think it will. you can bet that will mean classic cars, will get additional ecological taxes, etc. there will come a time that they simply will be banned. and quite frankly, i think it won't take that long at all.
20 years tops in urban areas, guaranteed.
gas stations will disappear naturally anyway too. so they'll just disappear and become 'museum' items,
which could go 2 ways; either rediculously valuable, or - which i think is more likely actually - totally worthless.

after all - they'll suddenly become totally useless. you can have one, but you can't drive it. that simple.
perhaps in some asian countries, african continents, and russian countries there's still chance it sells, but apart from that? nope.

it's the sad, cold truth. hybrids will extend shelf life, but it's only a matter of time.

even then, we're slowly moving towards autonomous vehicles anyway, so cars, as we know them today, will become extinct within 50 to 60 years TOPS. what that will mean for racing? i don't know. i think that could actually grow interest in racing. how future racing will look like, is a whole different thing though.

[Big Tea]

Don't get me wrong I'll most likely be dead before it happens and if not they will most certainly lose this and many long time fans. However I think the time will come where they ban my Mustang or other gasoline powered cars.
The move is afoot. Reference VW and others attempt to move us to EVs.

there's already environmental bans on vehicles in many EU cities.
diesel cars built before a certain year, or gasoline cars before a certain year or CO2 output, are banned from city areas and if you proceed to go through, you will be get some heavy fines.

it's a matter of time. by 2025, or perhaps even earlier, the NL's wants to ban selling of cars running on gasoline, diesel, etc, and only will allow selling of electric cars. whether that actually will happen i don't know but i think it will. you can bet that will mean classic cars, will get additional ecological taxes, etc. there will come a time that they simply will be banned. and quite frankly, i think it won't take that long at all.
20 years tops in urban areas, guaranteed.
gas stations will disappear naturally anyway too. so they'll just disappear and become 'museum' items,
which could go 2 ways; either rediculously valuable, or - which i think is more likely actually - totally worthless.

after all - they'll suddenly become totally useless. you can have one, but you can't drive it. that simple.
perhaps in some asian countries, african continents, and russian countries there's still chance it sells, but apart from that? nope.

it's the sad, cold truth. hybrids will extend shelf life, but it's only a matter of time.

even then, we're slowly moving towards autonomous vehicles anyway, so cars, as we know them today, will become extinct within 50 to 60 years TOPS. what that will mean for racing? i don't know. i think that could actually grow interest in racing. how future racing will look like, is a whole different thing though.

There have been a few times lately where cars/vans have been used as 'weapons', this more than anything else will speed up the introduction of 'autonomous only' zones in cities.

[Andres125sx]

There should be interest because someday, not tomorrow or in the very near future but someday it will take over and internal combustion powered cars will just be a memory.

That's on face value, a pretty bold claim - strad..

IMO, if the visceral sensation - the 'sound & fury', if you will - of ICE based racing goes, so will much of the fanbase interest..

Classic racing, featuring such 'real deal' machines - will surely draw that interest.. but hey, time'll tell..

Don´t worry JAW, there will always be vintage series for people reluctant to change like yourself

[Andres125sx]

Don't get me wrong I'll most likely be dead before it happens and if not they will most certainly lose this and many long time fans. However I think the time will come where they ban my Mustang or other gasoline powered cars.
The move is afoot. Reference VW and others attempt to move us to EVs.

I hope you´re not, because I expect it to happen in a decade or a bit more

they're already increasing peak power in quali from 200kw to 250kW, I think it was 180kW in season 1, as well as doubling the range from the batteries (the new battery is 54kWh, up from 28kWh for about the same weight). Despite having ~1/3 of F1 power the top speed in the new car will be 280km/hr - which is really fast considering how tight the tracks are. Racing slicks and more power would mean they couldn't race in city centres, where other series (eg F1) just wouldn't have the steering lock. The tyre's are also a means of making the cars slide which means the drivers make mistakes which makes for passing opportunities.

Just because you're not interested (why are you reading a thread about it if that's the case?) doesn't mean there is no interest. There's a lot of interest from manufacturers and punters.

I for one love the electric motor noise.

I think that part needed to be bolded and underlined, because to me this may be the beginning of the revolution

Just imagine any current EV we can see on our roads today, with double the range at same weight!

Obviously FE new batteries will need some development before hitting production cars, but once they´re ready, ICEs will be done. Who need more than 500-600km range? Ok some people, but for most EV will be more than enough and their only disadvantage will dissapear

[Manoah2u]

well, the biggest thing right now is cost, investment and return.

you could actually compare it more or less to when carbon fiber started to become 'the standard' in F1.
carbon fiber was crazy expensive still, but more and more after it's usability and practicality became better and better, it started becoming 'the standard' in F1. it didn't happen overnight, but at certain point it got fast. to a point nowadays that it's relatively 'cheap' compared to when it first was used.
most money in F1 cars are not neccesarily the materials itself, rather the research, development, and rules. after all, the monocoque, nose, etc. have to withstand very high demands.
with reason, offcourse.

point i'm making is, at certain point, the prices will go down, so goes for batteries.

the thing is, it's not like there aren't relatively capable batteries - the problem is the cost for both development, research, and implementation are so high, that it's not worth using it YET.
when demand increases for batteries - which it will gigantically the coming decade, or even less,
cost will plummit and all of a sudden we're in a 'brave new world'.

at that moment, formula E - and any other electric sports - will become a breeding platform for more efficiency, better technology, and battery tech - as well as electric motors etc - will be booming. autonomous technology is relatively new, but is gaining popularity and is becoming more and more advanced every day.

laws and regulations will have to change and will provide the additional impact - whether positive or negative.
think about for example how the railroad network will get impacted by electric and autonomous tech. if travelling by electric (autonomous) vehicles will become so valuable it will outweigh the cost of a train ticket, a lot of jobs will be in danger aswell as a gigantic impact on infrastructure.
hence there will be a need for regulations from the government to protect jobs and save infrastructure. otherwise WE will have to pay ginormeous taxes to pay for all the loss of jobs. that's the world we live in.
so you can bet the railroad/train industry will get government backing, and also MUST invest/get more advanced electric technology.

last but not least, airlines and boats.

can there be electric airliners? that's the biggest one of 'em all i'd say. there is no area where weight is more important than in air traffic, and regulations are as strict - understandably. first the investments of the past and current decades on airplanes running on fossil fuels needs to be given a chance to be earned 'back', and then there's the area of investing into electric power housing. can there be electric jet engines? electric turbine engines? will we see a return of propellor engines but powered by electric motors?

interestingly, electric engines are not 'restricted' by oxigen supply. in other words, theoretically, you can go much higher in the air. but then you're still dependant of the propulsion itself - and power supply. what can be achieved in the air through solar power? how far will battery tech 'evolve' in the coming years in becoming more powerfull, lighter, safer, and more economical?

again, there's a brave new revolution right at the doorstep, and there is no stopping it - it can only be phased.

interestingly, safety is rather at the maximum achievable level right now in motorsports, all there's really left in F1 is windscreens. but going more and more electric, there is going to be more and more development possibilities also in safety there.

it's funny to me that teams, fia, etc. are saying the engines took a 'step too far' when in fact, that's not at all the case. it's the regulations that kill the potential and one of the biggest killbuzz is the fuel flow limit. if that was lifted or much less restrictive, we'd see much more potential from the engines, and the powerhouses would become much more interesting. same for the engine restriction. if those were lifted by realistic margins.

[Tommy Cookers]

sorry if this is off the emergent EV religion/conspiracy theory theme of this FE thread ......

the reason we have ICEs is that the US electricity corporations didn't grid up the whole country
if they had there would have been no ICEs
the EV was the first car but only viable to those on-grid
and gasoline was a waste product of lamp and heating oil production (no national grid, you see)
(too late, gridding was forced on the corporations - by destroying their 65% efficient city CHP)

the battery and power electronics industries sat on their lazy fat arses for 50 years
though eg they had made miniature valves (vacuum tubes) with a 125000 g swing capability - for WW2 shell proximity fuses

[jjn9128]

I think that part needed to be bolded and underlined, because to me this may be the beginning of the revolution

Just imagine any current EV we can see on our roads today, with double the range at same weight!

Obviously FE new batteries will need some development before hitting production cars, but once they´re ready, ICEs will be done. Who need more than 500-600km range? Ok some people, but for most EV will be more than enough and their only disadvantage will dissapear

Yeah, range is the key obstacle for a lot of people when considering (or not) EV's, but when most people's daily commute is <5miles, 200-300miles isn't all that essential. Energy density is increasing while battery volume is staying broadly consistent. There is no Moore's law in battery technology - the Leaf has gone from 24kWh to 30kWh to 40kWh in the 2018 model, which has seen the range increase from ~70 (112km) to ~170miles (274km). Tesla may quote >300mi (500km) but their cars weight 2+tonnes, and they're also expensive and they're struggling to deliver on orders. Solid state batteries seem to be the next step change in technology coming. That will be a very interesting time because I can see increased range with reduced weight.

The batteries used in Formula E aren't really all that cutting edge - as they're supplied to teams from Williams, next season by McLaren - the inverters and motors are where teams are allowed to spend and that's were the motorsport effect trickle down effect will be seen.

Norway is an example of where there has been a large uptake of EV's because their government reduced duties on EV's - I think they have the highest number of Tesla's per person in the world. There's even been a sort of social shift - like with smoking - where petroleum car drivers are being pressured about driving something which pollutes at source.

[Tommy Cookers]

the Norway Govt takes people's tax and pays people to buy EVs
as here in the UK - after income tax we pay eg 200% tax on motor fuel and Govt gives $7000 to EV buyers
and UK Govt has given c $1000000000 nationally and extranationally to (Japanese) EV battery makers
EVs use mostly fossil fuel electricity and their carbon signature is hardly less than ICEV's
Norway is unique - it exports fossil fuels and it has so much hydroelectricity it exports that also

most populations need 5x as much heat energy as they need electricity
electrifying private vehicles helps politicians control us by bogus fear and guilt but is trivial and a dangerous diversion
the need is to reduce high carbon electricity not increase demand for electricity regardless

[Big Tea]

I think that part needed to be bolded and underlined, because to me this may be the beginning of the revolution

Just imagine any current EV we can see on our roads today, with double the range at same weight!

Obviously FE new batteries will need some development before hitting production cars, but once they´re ready, ICEs will be done. Who need more than 500-600km range? Ok some people, but for most EV will be more than enough and their only disadvantage will dissapear

Yeah, range is the key obstacle for a lot of people when considering (or not) EV's, but when most people's daily commute is <5miles, 200-300miles isn't all that essential. Energy density is increasing while battery volume is staying broadly consistent. There is no Moore's law in battery technology - the Leaf has gone from 24kWh to 30kWh to 40kWh in the 2018 model, which has seen the range increase from ~70 (112km) to ~170miles (274km). Tesla may quote >300mi (500km) but their cars weight 2+tonnes, and they're also expensive and they're struggling to deliver on orders. Solid state batteries seem to be the next step change in technology coming. That will be a very interesting time because I can see increased range with reduced weight.

The batteries used in Formula E aren't really all that cutting edge - as they're supplied to teams from Williams, next season by McLaren - the inverters and motors are where teams are allowed to spend and that's were the motorsport effect trickle down effect will be seen.

Norway is an example of where there has been a large uptake of EV's because their government reduced duties on EV's - I think they have the highest number of Tesla's per person in the world. There's even been a sort of social shift - like with smoking - where petroleum car drivers are being pressured about driving something which pollutes at source.

Its not just range, probably even not so much range, as charge time and availability.
Even 30 min charge is seen as a huge 'block' of time that has to be allowed, and even that has to be done in a dedicated place. If wireless charging devices cost only a few pound and could be embedded in the 'usual' parking place at home work or shops it would transform the usage and acceptability (sorry, unintentional)