Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

... F1 is data driven ... The technical stuff is way more interesting; e.g. how do they do it? What advantage is gained? What can the FIA do to stop it?

Exactly. Its more like what bugs are there in the software/hardware algorithms that drive the FIA sensors? What data busses are available to the sensors and what data can be spoofed? Is it possible that difficult to detect devices, eg opto electrical, audio, hydraulic circuits, jamming devices etc can be used to thwart FIA systems?

The FIA simply needs to be upfront, open and transparent about what the problem is; and rather than fit devices in a clandestine manner (if that is not just a rumour), they need to get experts to rip the Ferrari cars apart, bolt by bolt, in a way that would leave no doubts. For fairness, they would need to do this to all other top cars too.

Both the teams and the FIA know all this, to a certain extent it's a dog and pony show. Not that there's some grand conspiracy it's just limits on human nature, no one can know everything. The people that have the final say with legality are people and they can and do make mistakes. The regulations serve as the foundation, but there's always some human element. Due to our biology we will always be biased creatures.

[saviour stivala]

From AMuS:

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... korrektur/

Ferrari teilt seinen Energiespeicher als einziges Team in zwei Hälften. Deshalb auch zwei Ausgänge. Das ist zunächst nicht strafbar, so lange nie mehr als vier Megajoule Energie pro Runde und 120 Kilowatt Leistung (163 PS) in das System eingespeist werden. Das wird mit einem von der FIA homologierten Sensor am Ausgang der Batterie gemessen. Nach einem Tipp von Mercedes ließ sich die FIA in Baku und Barcelona Leistungsdiagramme zeigen und überprüfte die Batterie. Es ging darum, dass unter bestimmten Bedingungen der Sensor so umgangen werden kann, dass er überschüssige Leistung nicht misst.

Die Konkurrenz behauptet, dass sie bei Ferrari in Baku in den Qualifikationsrunden über GPS-Messungen einen plötzlichen Leistungsanstieg von 20 PS ermittelt haben will, was in der Rundenzeit drei Zehntel gebracht haben soll. In Barcelona hätte Ferrari dagegen keinerlei Extraleistung auf den Geraden mobilisiert. Da aber waren alle im Zirkus bereits gewarnt. Die ersten Batteriechecks gab es ja bereits in Baku.

In short: Ferrari is the only team that splits its battery into two parts and therefore has 2 separate outputs. This is not against the rules, as long as not more than 4 MJ is fetched per lap and 120KW. The FIA use a homologated sensor at the output of the battery to measure this. After a tip by Mercedes, the FIA wanted to see energy diagrams in Baku and Barcelona from Ferrari to check the energy flow. The suspicion was that under certain conditions, the sensor could be bypassed.

The competition claims that GPS data showed that in qualifying in Baku, Ferrari had a burst of around 20hp and gave up to 3 tenths advantage. In Barcelona this wasn't the case anymore, probably due to the fact others were already suspicious about it.

The capability of some minds to imaginative speculation is incredible.
The rules stipulates: the final link for ERS/electric power energy flow to the power train is through the 120KW/161BHP 200Nm maximum torque MGU-K, this electric power flow is allowed for 1 lap for 33.33 seconds per lap.
The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

[dans79]

The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

You can have multiple cells in a pack.........

[trinidefender]

From AMuS:

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... korrektur/

Ferrari teilt seinen Energiespeicher als einziges Team in zwei Hälften. Deshalb auch zwei Ausgänge. Das ist zunächst nicht strafbar, so lange nie mehr als vier Megajoule Energie pro Runde und 120 Kilowatt Leistung (163 PS) in das System eingespeist werden. Das wird mit einem von der FIA homologierten Sensor am Ausgang der Batterie gemessen. Nach einem Tipp von Mercedes ließ sich die FIA in Baku und Barcelona Leistungsdiagramme zeigen und überprüfte die Batterie. Es ging darum, dass unter bestimmten Bedingungen der Sensor so umgangen werden kann, dass er überschüssige Leistung nicht misst.

Die Konkurrenz behauptet, dass sie bei Ferrari in Baku in den Qualifikationsrunden über GPS-Messungen einen plötzlichen Leistungsanstieg von 20 PS ermittelt haben will, was in der Rundenzeit drei Zehntel gebracht haben soll. In Barcelona hätte Ferrari dagegen keinerlei Extraleistung auf den Geraden mobilisiert. Da aber waren alle im Zirkus bereits gewarnt. Die ersten Batteriechecks gab es ja bereits in Baku.

In short: Ferrari is the only team that splits its battery into two parts and therefore has 2 separate outputs. This is not against the rules, as long as not more than 4 MJ is fetched per lap and 120KW. The FIA use a homologated sensor at the output of the battery to measure this. After a tip by Mercedes, the FIA wanted to see energy diagrams in Baku and Barcelona from Ferrari to check the energy flow. The suspicion was that under certain conditions, the sensor could be bypassed.

The competition claims that GPS data showed that in qualifying in Baku, Ferrari had a burst of around 20hp and gave up to 3 tenths advantage. In Barcelona this wasn't the case anymore, probably due to the fact others were already suspicious about it.

The capability of some minds to imaginative speculation is incredible.
The rules stipulates: the final link for ERS/electric power energy flow to the power train is through the 120KW/161BHP 200Nm maximum torque MGU-K, this electric power flow is allowed for 1 lap for 33.33 seconds per lap.
The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

Show us all where it is stated that the limit is for 33.33 seconds per lap. I have posted a picture that is taken from the technical regulations and taken a quote from the official F1 website that contradict what you say yet you refuse to believe it.

I'm not sure why you are so against people stating facts. Nobody is saying Ferrari is cheating by sending energy from the MGU-H to the MGU-K, quite the opposite actually. It is something that all the teams do.

Secondly, a single pack can be made up of multiple cells inside it with multiple outputs, which again, no one is saying is illegal.

Most on here don't have any sort of vendetta against Ferrari as you seem to think, we just are doing our best to find out what exactly is going on from a more technical standpoint. I.e. The methodology and engineering is more interesting than whether or not they actually broke the rules.

[MakkieT]

From AMuS:

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... korrektur/

Ferrari teilt seinen Energiespeicher als einziges Team in zwei Hälften. Deshalb auch zwei Ausgänge. Das ist zunächst nicht strafbar, so lange nie mehr als vier Megajoule Energie pro Runde und 120 Kilowatt Leistung (163 PS) in das System eingespeist werden. Das wird mit einem von der FIA homologierten Sensor am Ausgang der Batterie gemessen. Nach einem Tipp von Mercedes ließ sich die FIA in Baku und Barcelona Leistungsdiagramme zeigen und überprüfte die Batterie. Es ging darum, dass unter bestimmten Bedingungen der Sensor so umgangen werden kann, dass er überschüssige Leistung nicht misst.

Die Konkurrenz behauptet, dass sie bei Ferrari in Baku in den Qualifikationsrunden über GPS-Messungen einen plötzlichen Leistungsanstieg von 20 PS ermittelt haben will, was in der Rundenzeit drei Zehntel gebracht haben soll. In Barcelona hätte Ferrari dagegen keinerlei Extraleistung auf den Geraden mobilisiert. Da aber waren alle im Zirkus bereits gewarnt. Die ersten Batteriechecks gab es ja bereits in Baku.

In short: Ferrari is the only team that splits its battery into two parts and therefore has 2 separate outputs. This is not against the rules, as long as not more than 4 MJ is fetched per lap and 120KW. The FIA use a homologated sensor at the output of the battery to measure this. After a tip by Mercedes, the FIA wanted to see energy diagrams in Baku and Barcelona from Ferrari to check the energy flow. The suspicion was that under certain conditions, the sensor could be bypassed.

The competition claims that GPS data showed that in qualifying in Baku, Ferrari had a burst of around 20hp and gave up to 3 tenths advantage. In Barcelona this wasn't the case anymore, probably due to the fact others were already suspicious about it.

The capability of some minds to imaginative speculation is incredible.
The rules stipulates: the final link for ERS/electric power energy flow to the power train is through the 120KW/161BHP 200Nm maximum torque MGU-K, this electric power flow is allowed for 1 lap for 33.33 seconds per lap.
The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

Hey, there's the 33.33 seconds saga again It just cannot be contained.

[saviour stivala]

The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

You can have multiple cells in a pack.........

They do have multiple cells in the pack but contrary to the speculation the rules does not permit a split battery/ES like Red Bull used when KERS was in use.

[dans79]

The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

You can have multiple cells in a pack.........

They do have multiple cells in the pack but contrary to the speculation the rules does not permit a split battery/ES like Red Bull used when KERS was in use.

I think your missing the point.

here are the latest rules.
https://www.fia.com/file/64927/download ... n=XN2hTEj2

Pleas indicate what rule says a team can't have multiple outputs from the ES, as long as it's one physical package.

[trinidefender]

The battery/ES pack must weigh between 20 and 25kg and must be contained in a single pack and (NOT SPLIT).

You can have multiple cells in a pack.........

They do have multiple cells in the pack but contrary to the speculation the rules does not permit a split battery/ES like Red Bull used when KERS was in use.

Nobody is saying it is split in two different locations. What posters are saying is that it is one unit (as in it is packaged together in the same location in the car) however that one unit can have multiple positive and negative terminals going to and from it. This isn't illegal.

P.s. Still haven't explained the 33.33 second thing...

[McHonda]

Because he can't.

[PlatinumZealot]

This must be a separate but still related issue. The focus has shifted to the turbocharger, specifically.

It will be interesting to see where this goes, because getting oil into the engine via the turbo seems like it would be strait forward and easy to do.

Just a matter of sizing the feed and drain lines for the oil.

What it implies is that you can leak coolant oil from the MGUH... Into the compressor... Since it is not considered engine oil it won't be scrutinized as engine oil would be.

In the long shaft turbo designs the bearing housing (or housings!) is probably in two chambers with two sets of oil supplies and drains.. The mguh sits in the middle but it is closee if not adjacent to the compressor. It should be relativlely easy to bleed the electrical cooling oil into the compressor thru a small check valved mister.

[saviour stivala]

You can have multiple cells in a pack.........

They do have multiple cells in the pack but contrary to the speculation the rules does not permit a split battery/ES like Red Bull used when KERS was in use.

Nobody is saying it is split in two different locations. What posters are saying is that it is one unit (as in it is packaged together in the same location in the car) however that one unit can have multiple positive and negative terminals going to and from it. This isn't illegal.

P.s. Still haven't explained the 33.33 second thing...

OK I will explain it in as short and as simple as possible and hope it makes you and others happy. "When FERRARI wins they must be cheaying. When Mercedes wins they have designed a superior car".

[trinidefender]

They do have multiple cells in the pack but contrary to the speculation the rules does not permit a split battery/ES like Red Bull used when KERS was in use.

Nobody is saying it is split in two different locations. What posters are saying is that it is one unit (as in it is packaged together in the same location in the car) however that one unit can have multiple positive and negative terminals going to and from it. This isn't illegal.

P.s. Still haven't explained the 33.33 second thing...

OK I will explain it in as short and as simple as possible and hope it makes you and others happy. "When FERRARI wins they must be cheaying. When Mercedes wins they have designed a superior car".

Nobody on this forum is saying Ferrari is cheating though....people are just saying that what may or may not be happening is interesting from a technical point of view and that they want to know exactly what is going on.

Not sure if you're not a native English speaker because I feel as though some things may get lost in translation for you.

[saviour stivala]

Nobody is saying it is split in two different locations. What posters are saying is that it is one unit (as in it is packaged together in the same location in the car) however that one unit can have multiple positive and negative terminals going to and from it. This isn't illegal.

P.s. Still haven't explained the 33.33 second thing...

OK I will explain it in as short and as simple as possible and hope it makes you and others happy. "When FERRARI wins they must be cheaying. When Mercedes wins they have designed a superior car".

Nobody on this forum is saying Ferrari is cheating though....people are just saying that what may or may not be happening is interesting from a technical point of view and that they want to know exactly what is going on.

Not sure if you're not a native English speaker because I feel as though some things may get lost in translation for you.

"Nobody on this forum is saying FERRARI is cheating" But some or better still most including their dogs suspects they are and went into overdrive conspiring on how and in what way.

[Tommy Cookers]

vice-versa - Monza 1976

[McHonda]

They do have multiple cells in the pack but contrary to the speculation the rules does not permit a split battery/ES like Red Bull used when KERS was in use.

Nobody is saying it is split in two different locations. What posters are saying is that it is one unit (as in it is packaged together in the same location in the car) however that one unit can have multiple positive and negative terminals going to and from it. This isn't illegal.

P.s. Still haven't explained the 33.33 second thing...

OK I will explain it in as short and as simple as possible and hope it makes you and others happy. "When FERRARI wins they must be cheaying. When Mercedes wins they have designed a superior car".

One last try...

Having more than 4MJ of energy pass through the K isn't cheating as long as it doesn't exceed 120kw of power at any one time.

Please separate those of us trying to inform you of there being no 33.33s a lap limit to those trying to ask if Ferrari are sending 140kw through the damned thing at any one time. These are two entirely different things. One is a proven technique using pathways left unlimited by the FIA to drive R&D on the MGU-H and the other one is a baseless rumour.

K-H-ES-H-K transfer is entirely unlimited in terms of energy transfer as was confirmed by Honda. Fact and finally proven. There is no 33.33s limit.

120kw is a limit on power going from the K to the drivetrain so if someone is trying to send 140kw at any one time it's cheating. Fact and completely unproven.


Stop trying to lump them both in with the theories about this recent FIA investigation, they are two entirely separate things. No-one is saying Ferrari are doing something wrong by having more than 33.33s of 120kw. No-one, nada, as it's not illegal in any way shape or form.

If they use just 1s of 140kw it's completely illegal. This is the unproven rumour part you can rightly scoff at for as long as Ferrari pass all their tests which they have.