F-Duct

[roon]

F-duct was so cool. Watch the left hand in that video. Unlimited DRS. I can't recall; were any crashes caused by drivers altering downforce on the RW to early, or too late? There were no 'zones' limiting when they could use it, of course.

[turbof1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv5PHoR2-lo

F-duct was so cool. Watch the left hand in that video. Unlimited DRS. I can't recall; were any crashes caused by drivers altering downforce on the RW to early, or too late? There were no 'zones' limiting when they could use it, of course.

I don't believe there actually were any crashes. Ironically driving around with one hand on the steering wheel was more reliable than DRS is, because DRS has more moving parts that could put the wing stuck in open mode.

[zac510]

I don't believe there actually were any crashes. Ironically driving around with one hand on the steering wheel was more reliable than DRS is, because DRS has more moving parts that could put the wing stuck in open mode.

Do you have any data to support that claim? I can only think of a couple of scenarios where the DRS has physically failed, and then a couple of scenarios where there has been a crashed caused by aerodynamic failure of the DRS (ie air has not reattached to the wing after DRS switched off). I have not searched for the data myself because it's you making the claim.

I think if we'd had F-duct for another year or two of evolution we'd soon have drivers using the F-duct through a few corners on the track to optimise the downforce level by location on the track. Then it is getting potentially dangerous.

[turbof1]

I don't believe there actually were any crashes. Ironically driving around with one hand on the steering wheel was more reliable than DRS is, because DRS has more moving parts that could put the wing stuck in open mode.

Do you have any data to support that claim? I can only think of a couple of scenarios where the DRS has physically failed, and then a couple of scenarios where there has been a crashed caused by aerodynamic failure of the DRS (ie air has not reattached to the wing after DRS switched off). I have not searched for the data myself because it's you making the claim.

I think if we'd had F-duct for another year or two of evolution we'd soon have drivers using the F-duct through a few corners on the track to optimise the downforce level by location on the track. Then it is getting potentially dangerous.

The data is rather simple: There never were issues with the F-duct. Alonso's DRS in 2013 for instance failed: https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/05/ ... n-bahrain/

I did choose my words carefully here, using the words "more reliable". There is less chance of a mechanical failure of the system, so it will react correctly to the driver input. I can't say that the driver input would always be correct however . I'd generally say that driving with one hand on the steering wheel would be more dangerous than the DRS because that driver input can go wrong.

I have to say though that F-Duct was much more used than DRS is over a race distance; so your test sample size is bigger there per season.

[zac510]

I don't believe there actually were any crashes. Ironically driving around with one hand on the steering wheel was more reliable than DRS is, because DRS has more moving parts that could put the wing stuck in open mode.

Do you have any data to support that claim? I can only think of a couple of scenarios where the DRS has physically failed, and then a couple of scenarios where there has been a crashed caused by aerodynamic failure of the DRS (ie air has not reattached to the wing after DRS switched off). I have not searched for the data myself because it's you making the claim.

I think if we'd had F-duct for another year or two of evolution we'd soon have drivers using the F-duct through a few corners on the track to optimise the downforce level by location on the track. Then it is getting potentially dangerous.

The data is rather simple: There never were issues with the F-duct. Alonso's DRS in 2013 for instance failed: https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/05/ ... n-bahrain/

I did choose my words carefully here, using the words "more reliable". There is less chance of a mechanical failure of the system, so it will react correctly to the driver input. I can't say that the driver input would always be correct however . I'd generally say that driving with one hand on the steering wheel would be more dangerous than the DRS because that driver input can go wrong.

Agree with that! I think I'd choose mechanical failure over human failure, I must have a too low faith in humankind

[mclaren111]

I also prefer DRS to the F-Duct.

[TankMarvin]

Didn't Mcl operate their F-Duct with the drivers left knee, keeping both hands on the wheel ?

I also agree with the point above - if it reacts predictably to the drivers input and it's used at the drivers discretion then that is racing... the ability to use the accelerator pedal is not reduced through tight corners just in case the driver tries to use too much of it.

I'd rather see a driver using an F-Duct at their discretion than a driver being articifically restricted to when and where they can use DRS.

[DiogoBrand]

That's a quite cool video, I didn't use to follow F1 until 2015, so it's quite interesting to me how he closes the hole on every straight, even the glove is specially made to seal it.

Didn't Mcl operate their F-Duct with the drivers left knee, keeping both hands on the wheel ?

I also agree with the point above - if it reacts predictably to the drivers input and it's used at the drivers discretion then that is racing... the ability to use the accelerator pedal is not reduced through tight corners just in case the driver tries to use too much of it.

I'd rather see a driver using an F-Duct at their discretion than a driver being articifically restricted to when and where they can use DRS.

But then it becomes pointless. Everyone will be using it at more or less the same places and no one will get an advantage from it.

[TankMarvin]

Didn't Mcl operate their F-Duct with the drivers left knee, keeping both hands on the wheel ?

I also agree with the point above - if it reacts predictably to the drivers input and it's used at the drivers discretion then that is racing... the ability to use the accelerator pedal is not reduced through tight corners just in case the driver tries to use too much of it.

I'd rather see a driver using an F-Duct at their discretion than a driver being articifically restricted to when and where they can use DRS.

But then it becomes pointless. Everyone will be using it at more or less the same places and no one will get an advantage from it.

So why don't all cars lap at the same speed today ? They all have the same pedals and a steering wheel ?

Perhaps an open F-Duct is more effective on some cars
Or forces a slightly different line through long fast corners due to less downforce
Or highlights cars with better balance or grip
Or hightlights braver drivers

[DiogoBrand]

When did I say "if you give everyone the F-Duct every car will lap at the same speeds"?
I said that if everyone has it, every driver will use it on the same places, and the difference of performance of all cars with F-Duct versus all cars with no F-Duct will be pretty much zero, so it doesn't add anything to the show. Not so hard to understand.

[Andres125sx]

F-duct or DRS? Neither of them. I would rather prefer the thing wich both of them are tring to emulate wich is active aero

With active aero there could even be different max AoA allowed, so a car into dirty air can increase a bit its AoA to compensate the loos of DF, even if it´s not fully compensated it will be better to nothing

Combine this with active suspensions, and a lower min height for cars in dirty air, and I think it will be possible to achieve similar DF levels even in dirty air. But even if not similar perfomance (as dirty air will always be dirty air), DF reduction when in dirty air will be much lower, and wheel to wheel battles will be much easier.

Today, depending on the track, F1 cars need to be around 2s per lap faster to fight the car in front. If the necessary pace differece to attack the car in front may be reduced to 1s racing will be dramatically improved

[zac510]

When did I say "if you give everyone the F-Duct every car will lap at the same speeds"?
I said that if everyone has it, every driver will use it on the same places, and the difference of performance of all cars with F-Duct versus all cars with no F-Duct will be pretty much zero, so it doesn't add anything to the show. Not so hard to understand.

Do you remember when we first had DRS and during qualifying you could use it all over the track? That was really good because some teams had to make a compromise between a big DRS flap or small DRS flap, the former favouring qualifying and the latter favouring the race. A race is always good when the fastest cars in the race are different to the fastest cars in qualifying. Unfortunately when they introduced fixed gear ratios they limited the qualifying use of DRS.

For practical purposes there is no difference between DRS and F-duct, just that the former has its activation regulated by the FIA.