French GP 2008

[bar555]

Heidfeld is out of Q3

Kubica hardly managed to get in Q3

BMW F1.08 (winner of Canadian GP ) shows poor performance till now ,( no obvious reason why )

Pay attention to the pass of F1.08 over the last chicane , too much time lost there

[WhiteBlue]

This was a desaster for BMW and Mario Theissen did a very bad job denying that a different practise strategy would have helped.

Obviously all teams were out for very fast qualifying. Renault had both drivers doing lots of training on soft and hard tyres and low fuel loads. Toyota went very well as they do when it gets hot and the track demanding. BMW did no practise at all for qualifying this morning which was a dumb thing to do. They certainly do not have the pace of McLaren or Ferrari and I doubt that their J-damper is really on par with even Renault.

Magny Cours is a difficult track to get right, you drive with very low ride height and it has lots of challenging corners with elevation changes and negative and positive banking.

Kubica was only 0.06 s faster than Heidfeld and extremely lucky that he managed to beat Piquet who did tons of quali training. In Q3 he did not look quite so bad because all drivers had to carry higher fuel loads which BMW had practised for. But ultimately there is no denying that BMW is off the pace and there is little chance to get a podium.

Unless stupid mistakes are made, accidents happen or rain goes down I expect Kimi, Massa and Heikki to end the race as they are starting it. The others will all be lighter and Kubica could make it up to 4th but I would not make a bet on this. Alonso showed in Barcelona that he is superb on this kind of track and I see a good chance that he will stay ahead of Kubica.

[alex1015]

This is really awesome how they pierced the LCA in order to align the attachment points. I bet their hoping to clean this up somehow, it still looks a bit risky, like rubbing could occur.

Great shots and good analysis. This would make a nice addition to the thread on the F2008.

[Ciro Pabón]

Miguel, you are right, I forgot about the tyre change.

The two tyre rule is simply to help bridgestone to generate tyre talk in return for the supply and service they do. In my view that is legitimate because no companyt will just do it out of their good heart. they have to show a profit and that isn't possible if they do not generate PR from F1.

Not to mention that you never know which kind of tyre is going to be faster.

BTW, FIA changed its page. Now they display the "coming events" in the front page.

I'm afraid that smooth asphalt is hard on soft tyres, because you can develop high friction coefficients.

You can skip all the following paragraphs, but how hard is the surface on tyres does not depend much on the overall roughness resulting from the number, type and size of the stone chippings, or macro-texture.

It depends on micro-texture, that is, the roughness of the individual stone chippings.

The most important thing for grip is the content of asphalt: the more asphalt on the mixture, the lower grip you have. Second to that, is the amount and kind of sand in the mixture. Third would be to provide a "level of chipping", something like this image:



There are new "Negative Roughness Asphalts", very modern. I wonder when they will be used in tracks.

Roughness is always a compromise: low roughness can provide less grip for cars (and thus extended braking zones with hopefully more overtaking. However, that would be dangerous for motorcycles' extreme angles of ride around the corners.

Magny Cours is a special track, from the point of view of construction. They use a the widest asphalt finisher I know to build the track surface. This means that, unlike all the other tracks (except maybe China, I'm not sure) the asphalt is laid down in one pass of a 14 m wide machine, instead of laying down the asphalt in several strips, which in a regular road are at most 6 to 8 meters wide (they are more like 3-4 meters, for you to realize how monstrous is the machine used).

Ingersoll Rand 9 m paver


With extra wide asphalt finishers, irregularities are minized, allowing you to use a stiffer suspension. I could see in the qualy this morning that the suspension works little.

The kerbs at Magny Cours are also relatively low (at least compared with Canada or some other places ) or have a shallower edge. It's nice for me to see again the green and blue tires that allow you to say at first sight: "this is Magny Cours".

Of course, no F1 track is as smooth as the world record holders of smoothness: NHRA drag tracks, where the problem of transferring the power to the floor is orders of magnitude larger. In a drag track you use different roughness along its length to "go faster, further".

I really like the modifications made to Magny Cours. The "new" bend at the Water Tower takes you from 270 to 100 kph, allowing for some overtaking in the following straight. The track has three major braking zones, something relatively rare. The Lyceé pin is 14 meters wide and has asphalt for late braking. I also like the details, like the modifications to the barriers for improved visibility in these overtaking zones. The main straight is relatively long, asking for a good aero from the cars. The entry to the Big Curve is one of the fastest of the championship. I'd say that Magny Cours helps all the qualities of a good car.

"You don't know what you got 'til it's gone". For me, saying goodbye to Magny Cours is another sign that we might be forgetting the roots of this sport, treating with contempt our history and bypassing technique, for a more vibrant but less amazing show.

[WhiteBlue]

Heikki got a fife place penalty for holding up Webber in qualifying. It was a very unfortunate mistake to do after he already got penalised for the same thing in Malaysia. I saw the incident in the replay at the end of the qualifying session and thought. "Omigod here we go again." This is a shame for Heikki could certainly do with the points but it will help Alonso and Kubica.

[Miguel]

I want a podium and I want it now.

Heikki got a fife place penalty for holding up Webber in qualifying.

Mmm... good prospects for my desires and "predictions". I'm however very sorry for Heikki. He's just lacking a ton of luck this year. He's had his race compromised many times this year. Although he's been good in quali this year, his race stints have been a bit lacking IMHO. I want him to shine and to step up his game against Hamilton.

You can skip all the following paragraphs...

Don't do this to me, Ciro. Please. You've managed to get me into wikipedia trying to build a basic knowledge in asphalts. And only god knows how much time I can waste in the lair of editable knowledge. In any case, just a few questions:
1) What is a "negative fricction asphalt"?
2) Is there any microscopic model of friction? I mean, a model a physicist like me would appreciate.
3) Isn't a bike's maximum angle basically defined by the peak of the Pacejka curve? I'm sure the angular momentum plays a role but I'd think that in a low-grip track a bike would just tilt less.

Finally, Ciro's resume of Magny Cours is really good. However, Estoril is a tad too quick to give current F1's a good overtaking chance in Adelaide. And when I've driven it in simulators (a loong time ago, though) it lacked character. Also, both Chateau d'Eau and the last corner are terribly similar, which doesn't help things a bit. It is however much better than stop and go track like Bahrein.

PS: When F1 was broadcast in the pubic spansih TV (TVE), the commentator (Jesús Fraile) had two characteristic sentences: "Frentzen loves Paella" and "Magni Cours' asphalt has a polymeric cover".

[ben_watkins]

Anyone notice that Kimi had put the pole lap in and then aborted his second flying lap after Massa failed to beat his time. This means he has saved at least 1 if not 2 laps of race start fuel.

Looking very good for Ferrari 1-2 this weekend.

BMW a big surprise.

Macca - well they gonna be nowhere but in the middle of a s*** load of cars tomorrow and they'll be lucky to score points.

[Miguel]

Anyone notice that Kimi had put the pole lap in and then aborted his second flying lap after Massa failed to beat his time. This means he has saved at least 1 if not 2 laps of race start fuel.

Good point! He was in the entry for parc ferme for ages. I'll give you 1.5 laps

Looking very good for Ferrari 1-2 this weekend.

Macca - well they gonna be nowhere but in the middle of a s*** load of cars tomorrow and they'll be lucky to score points.

They will be heavily penalised by the fact that everybody seems to be so evenly matched. Kovi may have more difficulties to get some decent points (i.e. more than two) than Hamilton due to strategy. He's in a similar position to Alonso (last year).

[vyselegend]

I find the BMW's drop in performance rather difficult to explain. Even if others (namely Renault & Toyota -with Red Bull lurking around as usual-) have progressed more than them during last test, it's hard to believe they have lost their (3tenth at least) advantage on the chasing group, to the point of being now 2 tenth behind. It is unreasonable to think one can have gained as much as 5 tenth in two week times, and even then it would means the german team made no progress meanwhile, which is unlikely. No way Renault & Toyota have catched them up on race pace.

I think WhiteBlue has a clue, they messed up their strategy and misjuged the importance of qualy preparation, maybe because they were overconfidents, which they won't admit of course as the press would jump on the occasion to say it's because they won two weeks ago.

Anyway we'll have the answear tomorrow after the race, when we'll analyse race pace.

The Williams case is strange, it doesn't really seems that FW30 is losing to it's competition on a linear basis, but it's looking like the car is somehow street tracks biased. I remember discussing that here in another topic after Monaco, but now even Nico admited in an interview in french that their car "doesn't suit normal circuits like Magny-Cours". Indeed, Williams pace has been impressive in Melbourne, Monaco & Montreal, but they're struggling in smooth permanents tracks like Sepang & Magny-Cours. Could it underline a design bias in suspention geometry / damping?

I feel for Honda. Obviously the RA108 wasn't supposed to beat records, but still from this year's debut I thought 2007 bitterness was behind them, and now for two races they are in the fight with Force India again. More worrying is the comment made by Button, backed by Barichello:

The car was well balanced and we are pretty much getting the maximum performance from it, however unfortunately our pace reflects where we are at this track.

We are really pushing the limit of the car to try and achieve more pace but it is evident from how close Jenson and I have been all weekend that there is no more to come from the car.

I think it's the worst think that can happen to a team on a race week end (appart from accidents & tragedies obviously). The car is well balanced, it's braking well, it has good grip,drivers are getting good laps with no mistakes, but it is slow! That means there is no points to work on, the overall design isn't just efficient enough, as last year...

I'm looking forward to tommorows race, as this qualy asked more questions than what a race can usually answear.

[Ciro Pabón]

1) What is a "negative fricction asphalt"?
2) Is there any microscopic model of friction? I mean, a model a physicist like me would appreciate.
3) Isn't a bike's maximum angle basically defined by the peak of the Pacejka curve? I'm sure the angular momentum plays a role but I'd think that in a low-grip track a bike would just tilt less.

...

PS: When F1 was broadcast in the pubic spansih TV (TVE), the commentator (Jesús Fraile) had two characteristic sentences: "Frentzen loves Paella" and "Magni Cours' asphalt has a polymeric cover".

1) It's not negative friction, Miguel, it's negative texture, sorry I re-translated to english like "negative roughness".

They are thin layers of stone mastic asphalt, where, for lack of a better explanation, you produce voids "downward", instead of "upward", like this:



Yes, I know, it's not very clear. Either you have protruding (positive) rock tips or voids (negative) between flattened-by-wear rocks. Visually, you see this:

Hot rolled macadam (positive texture)

Stone mastic (negative texture)


Structurally, in the first kind you have loads transmitted through the filler/bitumen and in the second, negative one, through the large aggregates. Like this:

Open graded Macadam core, loads run throug the filling

Stone mastic core, loads run through aggregate interlocking


The aggregate gradation (sizing of particles) is very similar, but in the second, the voids that exist in open graded asphalt (to allow water to seep through), are filled with bitumen (the black gooey thing). The two core samples are relatively "modern", a more "traditional" asphalt has smaller rocks.

2) Yes, after several centuries of less than exciting advance in that field of physics... thank you guys.

There is one that takes in account the area of contact more precisely than previous theories. It calculates the area all the way down, from 1 cm irregularities, to the atomic level.

This allows you to explain the friction in terms of how much the materials interlock, without needing to resort to average friction factors.

For the theory to work, you also have to figure out how much energy is stored in the rubber, "before" being transmitted down to the track (in english: rubber cushions the jolts) or because it's radiated (in english: tyres are heated).

This is a repeated link: http://www.unisci.com/stories/20022/0612023.htm This is the Amazon book http://www.amazon.com/Sliding-Friction- ... 3540671927 and this is the article on the most exciting development: brakes for nano surfaces http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/652-3.html. I've always suspected that Mr. Bo Persson's new (year 2000) theory was behind Bridgestone dominance and Ferrari championships...

3) I was talking about the angle with the vertical (the lateral inclination of the bike), not the angle of the wheels to the axis of the vehicle (the Pacejka curve). I think that the Pacejka curve for a bike is very "short" (the maximum angle is very low), that is, you dont turn much the bike wheels to take the curve, you incline it.

Actually, to take a curve on a bike you have to turn the handles (for a moment, of course) in the opposite sense, that is, you turn left to turn right. Bikes turn because they're inclined. Please, read this: http://www.motorvike.com/MotoChat_Counter_Steering.htm

The idea of a track for bikes, according to my short experience (a total of two: a street course that was a failure and some complains from a couple of friends about a track used only by cars) is this:

The section of a racing bike tyre has the shape of a "V". You need to take in account how much "tilt you ask" of the motorcycle for it to take a curve. Ideally, you design curves that force the driver to incline the bike with an angle similar to the one that the "V" of the tyre has.

If you force the bike to incline more, which you tend to do on low grip asphalt, you go "beyond" that angle and make the wall touch the track, that is, you slide.

Have you ever rode a racing bycicle, that also has "tall tyres", on very smooth concrete or wood? Can you remember the "insecurity" you felt on sharp curves? You feel that you can incline a lot the bike, but if you overdo it, you know you're going to fall.

Simple: drivers tell you they feel like riding "on soap".

This opposes the "best practice" I recommend for "car tracks": to use low grip asphalt in braking zones, stretching them and helping a little the "real ability" of drivers.

Your car also brakes less in a downward slope. So, an alternative is descending entrances, in vertically concave curves, like Spa's Eau Rouge or (with more subtlety) in some curves at Brands Hatch.

These kind of curves are a b*tch in a bike, they don't "feel" well, or so I've been told (I don't ride bikes well at all). I'm not sure about the explanations of my friends. You wouldn't either, if you knew them...

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

Ciro, you leave me absolutly in aw.
When I saw those cars today(q3) at turn 3 estoril, it renewed the magic that draws me to racing.

[walter]

some thoughts about the starting grid...

Alonso is great off the line. Very aggressive, or at least definitely more aggressive than Truli. Alonso has Kubica right behind him and Truli on the right. Since the first turn is left-hand, I predict that Kubica will overtake Truli. Kovalainen (10th) will have Piquet to deal with for 9th which should be a piece of cake for him, however, Hamilton (13th) will have to deal with Vettel for and more importantly Heidfeld for 11th which will prove to be difficult. Despite the slow pace of the bmw, heidfeld has proven himself to be tough to overtake this year.

Up front, it seems as though Kimi has got his game on now that he is under some pressure. Last Year he was almost out of contention, and that drove him to push towards the end. This is his race to lose.

So far it looks like no rain for the race

[captainmorgan]

so what happens to piquet and whoever is behind him now that kovaleinen and hamilton got penalized? do they get to run whatever fuel they wish? do the mclaren's have to run with the fuel they had at the end of q3?

[SMP]

Drivers have to start the race with the fuel left over after Q3. So regardless of their actual starting positions (after promotions/penalties), the McLarens have to start with the same fuel they qualified with.

Does anyone have the latest weather update from Nevers??

[bar555]

SMP wrote :
Does anyone have the latest weather update from Nevers??

Nevers (FRA) - Altitude 196m sunday june 22


Reliability
80 % There remains a doubt about the change in the storm system.