How are cars classified if they DNF simultaneously?

[Clearhooter]

In F-1 racing. When multiple cars DNF in the same incident. How does the FIA, stewards, or what ever "powers that be" determine which car DNF's first ?

Is there no place here for that question ?

If so. Please let me know. Thanks.

[Big Tea]

I see what you mean.

45) CLASSIFICATION
45.1 The car placed first will be the one having covered the scheduled distance in the shortest time,
or, where appropriate, passed the Line in the lead at the end of two hours (or more under
Article 5.3). All cars will be classified taking into account the number of complete laps they
have covered, and for those which have completed the same number of laps, the order in
which they crossed the Line.
45.2 Cars having covered less than 90% of the number of laps covered by the winner (rounded
down to the nearest whole number of laps), will not be classified.
45.3 The official classification will be published after the race. It will be the only valid result subject
to any amendments which may be made under the Code and these Sporting Regulations.

Assuming neither car is dsq'd and neither given a time penalty?

If the race is red flagged, it is taken as position at the start of the previous lap.
I can only assume the same would apply as long as the stewards do not intervene, which they should if there is an incident.
I do not claim to be an expert, so will willingly defer to any alternative answer.

[hollus]

Interesting. So Grosjean and Sainz, after Silverstone, both are listed as "NC" in the race results in www.formula1.com.
Grosjean is listed ahead of Sainz (probably because he was ahead the last time they crossed the finish line), but they are not in positions 16th and 17th, but "NC" and "NC".

[johnny vee]

allrighty...
this is a very interesting question, I have actually never thought about it. I would think that the position through the last timing sector would apply.

[Clearhooter]

It is kind of an irrelevant question in the normal scheme of things. I mean, if all of the cars DNF in an accident; does it really matter who went out before the other? None are finishing ! Out is out ! Right?

Only if it effects a points standing would there be an issue. Which it really hasn't this season. OR.... If like me and several friends, who have a prediction game going. Which we do and have done so three years now. Until now this hasn't been a factor. This year however, rather than just predict the third place spot, we decided to throw in added points by predicting the first DNF. Yeah.... kind of "ghoulish" but it is what it is.

When we decided to add this to the equation I don't think the organizer figured in "the Grosjean factor." The multiple DNF hasn't been an issue, since we go by who the FIA says went out first. But in the several incidents involving multiple DNF's; I nor my "prediction buddies" have seen any consistency in the criteria that would determine who actually went out first. We were hoping there was something in writing that might clarify how the FIA comes to their final decision. IMWTK. Thanks for your input.

[adrianjordan]

This may sound far too logical for F1, but I would like to think that whoever is found to have caused an incident that results in another car or cars DNF-ing would be classified lower than the other car(s)...

[gold333]

I always thought that in racing accidents (i.e. no one to blame) with two DNF's the qualifying position dictated the order of DNF.

[notsofast]

The rule stated above is pretty clear: "for those which have completed the same number of laps, the order in which they crossed the Line".

(Cars that don't finish lap 1 are not classified anyway, per rule 45.2.)

The beauty of the entire rule is that it does not depend on anything that happens around the track, nor on any timing system. All you need is one guy standing at the "Line", watching the cars go by.

[Clearhooter]

adrianjordon, you are correct. That would be too simple. In the Spanish GP Grosjean was definitely at fault for the pile-up. But the order of the DNF went Hulkenberg, Gasly then Grosjean getting the 3rd DNF. At Silverstone His miscalculation took out Sainz. But Sainz finished out with a lower DNF.... So it's not who caused the multiple car crash that determines the DNF order.

It's also not how far the cars made it down the track. Were that the case in the crash involving Hartley and Stroll, Stroll made it further down the track albeit not much. But Stroll took the 1st DNF.

Big Tea. While these rules address the finish order I don't see anything specific about the order of DNF's. But then, I'm no lawyer. I might need one to help figure this out.

So according to rule 45.2 if you don't finish the first lap it's like a DNS ? But that still doesn't address the order of the DNF's. While this doesn't pertain to most crashes and DNF's I can see where it eventually would at sometime. There's got to be something in writing. I'm no lawyer. But it's starting to look like I'll need one to figure this out.... lol

I'd like to propose this question to Sky Sports if I could figure out how to do that.... Let them mull it over.

[Big Tea]

adrianjordon, you are correct. That would be too simple. In the Spanish GP Grosjean was definitely at fault for the pile-up. But the order of the DNF went Hulkenberg, Gasly then Grosjean getting the 3rd DNF. At Silverstone His miscalculation took out Sainz. But Sainz finished out with a lower DNF.... So it's not who caused the multiple car crash that determines the DNF order.

It's also not how far the cars made it down the track. Were that the case in the crash involving Hartley and Stroll, Stroll made it further down the track albeit not much. But Stroll took the 1st DNF.

Big Tea. While these rules address the finish order I don't see anything specific about the order of DNF's. But then, I'm no lawyer. I might need one to help figure this out.

So according to rule 45.2 if you don't finish the first lap it's like a DNS ? But that still doesn't address the order of the DNF's. While this doesn't pertain to most crashes and DNF's I can see where it eventually would at sometime. There's got to be something in writing. I'm no lawyer. But it's starting to look like I'll need one to figure this out.... lol

I'd like to propose this question to Sky Sports if I could figure out how to do that.... Let them mull it over.

Sorry, Hoped I had made it plain it was just a guess. I looked through the regs but found nothing appropriate other than red flag rules.

[Clearhooter]

I understand. Yeah... This was about all I found myself. You know they have to have covered this in the FIA rules. 'Cause one of these days it is going to factor in. Maybe not in my lifetime.... But one of these days.

Also the way I'm interpreting this is; if a car doesn't complete the required laps they will get lumped into that DNF pile ?

[Clearhooter]

I understand Big Tea. I did see those regs. But it ignores multiple DNF placement. Maybe it doesn't matter to the FIA because with several cars dominating a season the issue never really comes to mattering. One of these days. Maybe not in my lifetime. It will. Surely they have a rule on this somewhere?

They way I also interpret Rule 45... is if a car doesn't complete the required laps even if they go out with 1/2 of the race over; they get lumped in with the rest of the previous DNF's ?

[Clearhooter]

I always thought that in racing accidents (i.e. no one to blame) with two DNF's the qualifying position dictated the order of DNF.

I've been looking at each "theory" and tried to substantiate one.
This actually has some track record to back it. It works for every situation in question.

[Reptayn]

Hello guys from the past. I hope someone sees this and could help me out. I don't know if the rules you discribed is still accurate as of now but today it struck me like a lightning. In 2021 lewis and max were on par with points. Regularly if both dnf or finished outside the points max would have won the championship as he had more wins. So he could very much risk a crash in a racing incident with Hamilton but not vice versa. BUT here comes the regulation into play. In the last lap were it all happend P12 and above were one lap down. Verstappen and Hamilton incase of a double dnf would be counted as p10/11. And one of them would have gotten a point to become champion. According to you buddies of the past it would've been Hamilton because he crossed the line first going in the final lap. That means the driver that would benefit from a double dnf to win wdc shifted from verstappen to Hamilton in the last lap and I think nobody was aware of that. And if Hamilton was aware he could've maybe won because he could've defend harder going into last lap. Did I understand it correctly?

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Hello guys from the past. I hope someone sees this and could help me out. I don't know if the rules you discribed is still accurate as of now but today it struck me like a lightning. In 2021 lewis and max were on par with points. Regularly if both dnf or finished outside the points max would have won the championship as he had more wins. So he could very much risk a crash in a racing incident with Hamilton but not vice versa. BUT here comes the regulation into play. In the last lap were it all happend P12 and above were one lap down. Verstappen and Hamilton incase of a double dnf would be counted as p10/11. And one of them would have gotten a point to become champion. According to you buddies of the past it would've been Hamilton because he crossed the line first going in the final lap. That means the driver that would benefit from a double dnf to win wdc shifted from verstappen to Hamilton in the last lap and I think nobody was aware of that. And if Hamilton was aware he could've maybe won because he could've defend harder going into last lap. Did I understand it correctly?

That is really interesting and I don't think I've seen anyone mention it before.

Anyone shed any light on it? I know this is a really old thread.