Autonomous Cars

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AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Autonomous Cars

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rscsr wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 12:22

The other AV demonstrations (mainly form Audi) I've seen have basically been just replays from human input....
Are they though? If that was the case level 3 autonomous vehicles wouldn't currently exist, but they do, from several manufacturers...
We're at the tipping point right now, which is why this topic seems to be being discussed everywhere.

Moving the topic along, may I pose a few questions to everyone?
Do you consider yourself to be a better driver than other drivers?
Do you consider the beaten up 1997 Toyota Camry you occasionally see on the way to work, to be driven by a responsible person, and take no notice of that potential hazzard because a human is operating it?
Have you ever looked at your phone whilst driving?
Have you ever made a mistake whilst driving?

jz11
jz11
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 21:32

Re: Autonomous Cars

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that's a pretty dumb stereotypical ASSumption about the older cars and people driving them, there is a very valid argument that the ones that drive cheap leased and insurred from all sorts of accidents cars are the worse drivers, I'm sure 99.999% of those high speed accidents on unlimited highways are not caused by the older cars, but actually the clueless morons driving without any care because they feel safe - insured, and that abs will save them when they tailgate someone etc etc

and I'm VERY concerned about autonomous logic, bad drivers can be spotted early if you actually pay attention not just to speed limit and lane you're in, but there is little chance of that if the AVs sensors get dirty all of a sudden caused by a wake from a pool in the opposite lane after a heavy sudden shower, and the thing decidea to take some drastic avoidence measures...

I know all this can be programmed into the logic, but think how many different sorts of sensors there will be on that car, think that they will need to be maintained, and the inevitable quality issues when they'll go into serious mass production

and then think that if the thing decides that it is not capable of full auto mode, and an already quite poor skill wise and atrophied human driver will have to take control...

as I said - waaaaaaaay too many problems with full auto modes on public roads, but it will be some political meeting where it will be decided to allow this nonsense, and since when did politicians made sense in matters like these...

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Autonomous Cars

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jz11 wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 14:35
that's a pretty dumb stereotypical ASSumption about the older cars and people driving them, there is a very valid argument that the ones that drive cheap leased and insurred from all sorts of accidents cars are the worse drivers, I'm sure 99.999% of those high speed accidents on unlimited highways are not caused by the older cars, but actually the clueless morons driving without any care because they feel safe - insured, and that abs will save them when they tailgate someone etc etc

and I'm VERY concerned about autonomous logic, bad drivers can be spotted early if you actually pay attention not just to speed limit and lane you're in, but there is little chance of that if the AVs sensors get dirty all of a sudden caused by a wake from a pool in the opposite lane after a heavy sudden shower, and the thing decidea to take some drastic avoidence measures...

I know all this can be programmed into the logic, but think how many different sorts of sensors there will be on that car, think that they will need to be maintained, and the inevitable quality issues when they'll go into serious mass production

and then think that if the thing decides that it is not capable of full auto mode, and an already quite poor skill wise and atrophied human driver will have to take control...

as I said - waaaaaaaay too many problems with full auto modes on public roads, but it will be some political meeting where it will be decided to allow this nonsense, and since when did politicians made sense in matters like these...
Congratulations! You win the ridiculous stereotype competition.

Let's just summarise what's been covered.
- Fast new cars are more dangerous. Check!
- 'abs' [sic] make you a way more awesome driver. Check!
- autonomous sensors will get dirty. Check!
- technology always fails. Check!
- AV's will be pushed through not for safety or environmental or traffic control issues, but because of political reasons. Check!
- finally, some ALL CAPS for emphasis. CHECK!

Did I miss anything..?

Maybe in your inevitable reply you could try and consider my questions and answer them honestly..?
Last edited by AJI on 18 Jul 2018, 15:11, edited 1 time in total.

LM10
LM10
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Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Andres125sx wrote:
17 Jul 2018, 16:37
LM10 wrote:
17 Jul 2018, 14:45
strad wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 19:57
No comments about the Mustang wandering all over and almost running off the road and or almost hitting the hay bales???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsrijKBbK8
This is more like it :) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtVbch-02Fs
Wow didn´t know Robocars are at that point, thanks for sharing =D> =D>
You're welcome. :)

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Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Autonomous Cars

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jz11 wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 14:35
that's a pretty dumb stereotypical ASSumption about the older cars and people driving them, there is a very valid argument that the ones that drive cheap leased and insurred from all sorts of accidents cars are the worse drivers, I'm sure 99.999% of those high speed accidents on unlimited highways are not caused by the older cars, but actually the clueless morons driving without any care because they feel safe - insured, and that abs will save them when they tailgate someone etc etc

and I'm VERY concerned about autonomous logic, bad drivers can be spotted early if you actually pay attention not just to speed limit and lane you're in, but there is little chance of that if the AVs sensors get dirty all of a sudden caused by a wake from a pool in the opposite lane after a heavy sudden shower, and the thing decidea to take some drastic avoidence measures...

I know all this can be programmed into the logic, but think how many different sorts of sensors there will be on that car, think that they will need to be maintained, and the inevitable quality issues when they'll go into serious mass production

and then think that if the thing decides that it is not capable of full auto mode, and an already quite poor skill wise and atrophied human driver will have to take control...

as I said - waaaaaaaay too many problems with full auto modes on public roads, but it will be some political meeting where it will be decided to allow this nonsense, and since when did politicians made sense in matters like these...
Nosense is assuming everybody is capable of driving 1 ton vehicles over 100km/h between people, children, etc. #-o

I´ll always remember when I was a child and heard my father ranting at the wheel when some moron made some stupid move. He frequently said many people lack the capabilities to drive a car. At the day it did sound rough and preposterous to me. After 22 years with a driving license.... I can´t agree more!

There are people who can´t react on a dangerous situation, there are people with no respect to other drivers making dangerous moves becasue they must be the first always, there are people who´s too old and lost eyesight, reaction times, etc. and there are a lot of people who don´t pay enough attention when behind the wheel to the point it´s almost a miracle they usually arrive to their destiny.


AVs will be awesome both for those who shoudn´t drive a car, and for the rest of humankind as roads will be several orders of magnitude safer

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Why that mustang was displayed at Goodwood is beyond me...
Yeah.. Quite the faux pas by Siemens and Cranfield University.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Autonomous Cars

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There are people who can´t react on a dangerous situation, there are people with no respect to other drivers making dangerous moves becasue they must be the first always, there are people who´s too old and lost eyesight, reaction times, etc. and there are a lot of people who don´t pay enough attention when behind the wheel to the point it´s almost a miracle they usually arrive to their destiny.
.
AVs will be awesome both for those who shoudn´t drive a car, and for the rest of humankind as roads will be several orders of magnitude safer
Overall I agree with that. However I don't think everyone should be forced into an A.V.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

jz11
jz11
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 21:32

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Andres125sx wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 18:09
Nosense is assuming everybody is capable of driving 1 ton vehicles over 100km/h between people, children, etc. #-o

*snip*

There are people who can´t react on a dangerous situation, there are people with no respect to other drivers making dangerous moves becasue they must be the first always, there are people who´s too old and lost eyesight, reaction times, etc. and there are a lot of people who don´t pay enough attention when behind the wheel to the point it´s almost a miracle they usually arrive to their destiny.


AVs will be awesome both for those who shoudn´t drive a car, and for the rest of humankind as roads will be several orders of magnitude safer
I presume you wanted to say - nonsense is assuming everybody can drive cars 100% safely, well, we're human, so no, but HUGE improvement could be made if people at driving schools would not be taught how to pass the exam, but made understand that they drive (I'm not sure how it would translate into English) - an object of increased risk, experience loss of control (during their learning) - make them understand how much of a danger they are to the surrounding world, but instead the schools are pumping out green newbies who, for the most part, learn to actually drive in the first 5 years or so AFTER they get their licence, not everyone though - and here comes the worst part - because we mostly live in democracies - those who are too dumb and too lazy - support this AV nonsense, because they don't understand the physics, and MAYBE a tiny tiny fraction of those understand engineering and design, and how incredibly difficult it is to actually design a logic and all the required periphery to make it a car drive in fully autonomous mode.

I'm a son of electronics engineer, I learned to read electronic schematics at almost the same age I learned to read and write, and not just read, understand the logic (and little of underlying physics), made an AM radio when I was 6, I do mechanical and electronics design, and some industrial chemistry since then for 35 years, and I think it is a seriously dumb idea to develop fully autonomous cars for public roads as they are now. At one point they will simply become ridiculously complex and with complexity will come all sorts of unexpected behavior and consequent problems. So the solution is to (just as Strad already suggested) make everyone use only fully autonomous cars - and that is just another step forward to becoming a battery from Matrix, and I hope that it will not come to that in my lifetime.

and one more thing - about how not all men and women are not created equal, of course they are not, but I seriously believe that driving a car is not such a complex thing that any of the licensed people could drive nearly faultlessly - the problem is the illusion of safety and all the distractions causing them to think about 99 other things, but driving ain't one of them - because it is so easy, cheap, and everyone can do it, right?

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Autonomous Cars

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jz11 wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 21:52
Andres125sx wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 18:09
Nosense is assuming everybody is capable of driving 1 ton vehicles over 100km/h between people, children, etc. #-o

*snip*

There are people who can´t react on a dangerous situation, there are people with no respect to other drivers making dangerous moves becasue they must be the first always, there are people who´s too old and lost eyesight, reaction times, etc. and there are a lot of people who don´t pay enough attention when behind the wheel to the point it´s almost a miracle they usually arrive to their destiny.


AVs will be awesome both for those who shoudn´t drive a car, and for the rest of humankind as roads will be several orders of magnitude safer
I presume you wanted to say - nonsense is assuming everybody can drive cars 100% safely, well, we're human, so no, but HUGE improvement could be made if people at driving schools would not be taught how to pass the exam, but made understand that they drive (I'm not sure how it would translate into English) - an object of increased risk, experience loss of control (during their learning) - make them understand how much of a danger they are to the surrounding world, but instead the schools are pumping out green newbies who, for the most part, learn to actually drive in the first 5 years or so AFTER they get their licence, not everyone though - and here comes the worst part - because we mostly live in democracies - those who are too dumb and too lazy - support this AV nonsense, because they don't understand the physics, and MAYBE a tiny tiny fraction of those understand engineering and design, and how incredibly difficult it is to actually design a logic and all the required periphery to make it a car drive in fully autonomous mode.

I'm a son of electronics engineer, I learned to read electronic schematics at almost the same age I learned to read and write, and not just read, understand the logic (and little of underlying physics), made an AM radio when I was 6, I do mechanical and electronics design, and some industrial chemistry since then for 35 years, and I think it is a seriously dumb idea to develop fully autonomous cars for public roads as they are now. At one point they will simply become ridiculously complex and with complexity will come all sorts of unexpected behavior and consequent problems. So the solution is to (just as Strad already suggested) make everyone use only fully autonomous cars - and that is just another step forward to becoming a battery from Matrix, and I hope that it will not come to that in my lifetime.

and one more thing - about how not all men and women are not created equal, of course they are not, but I seriously believe that driving a car is not such a complex thing that any of the licensed people could drive nearly faultlessly - the problem is the illusion of safety and all the distractions causing them to think about 99 other things, but driving ain't one of them - because it is so easy, cheap, and everyone can do it, right?
As you build your own projects, you understand the priority of 'fail safe', unfortunately humans do not have this.
A human fail is just a fail.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Ahem... I didn't say they should be forced into A.V.s
.
If there is a problem with the ability of drivers, and there is, I would say that falls on the shoulders of the licensing agencies.
Here there hand out licenses to all but the most mentally challenged.
When I was growing up they told us that driving and a license was privilege not a right. Somewhere along the way the people in charge have decided that in the U.S. driving is a right. :(
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

jz11
jz11
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 21:32

Re: Autonomous Cars

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I wasn't quite clear there when I said you suggested that, I mean - for AVs to work as people think they should, everyone will have to use just AVs, no human driven cars at all, and I think you had the same idea, and we both are not looking forward to that day

AJI
AJI
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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strad wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 22:57

...If there is a problem with the ability of drivers, and there is, I would say that falls on the shoulders of the licensing agencies.
Here there hand out licenses to all but the most mentally challenged.
When I was growing up they told us that driving and a license was privilege not a right. Somewhere along the way the people in charge have decided that in the U.S. driving is a right. :(
strad, you're a reasonable man. If we haven't perfected the assessment system for licensing by now then surely you would have to agree that we never will..? Anyway, licensing has never been the problem. The misconception that even the best trained humans are infallible is the problem, and our perceived superiority over all other things on the planet is what makes us fallible. Just look at accident statistics for almost any transport system. Human error is overwhelmingly the key factor when there is an accident, is it not?
That aside, what about physical disability, general aptitude, inability due to age (either too old or too young), etc… Should those groups be excluded from the privilege of personal motor vehicle transport just because you and I and others 'think' that we're better at driving than an AV? Sounds like discrimination for the sake of our own personal satisfaction and "to hell with the general population" to me…
There's really only one way to equalise the 'privilege' so there is no discrimination, and that is to mandate 100% AV for public road use. This isn't even a question of 'if' anymore, it's a question of 'when'…

Humans will always have the option of going to a track to test their skills, but I'll bet you a million dollars that in the very near future the AV pace car will be the vehicle setting the benchmark time...

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Big Tea wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 22:38

...As you build your own projects, you understand the priority of 'fail safe', unfortunately humans do not have this.
A human fail is just a fail.
Well said that man!

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strad
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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There's really only one way to equalise the 'privilege' so there is no discrimination, and that is to mandate 100% AV for public road use. This isn't even a question of 'if' anymore, it's a question of 'when'…
Probably right.
Thank goodness I will be ashes by then.
As an aside a think tank in Europe has determined that robots will displace 1.2 Billion workers in the next couple of decades.
They cannot figure yet what they will do with them. Some they figure will find work in new trades but probably not in as lucrative jobs.
I am not anxious to see a world where everything from assembly workers to waiters to taxi drivers and machinists literally everybody is replaced by robotics and autonomous machinery.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Autonomous Cars

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strad wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 02:09
There's really only one way to equalise the 'privilege' so there is no discrimination, and that is to mandate 100% AV for public road use. This isn't even a question of 'if' anymore, it's a question of 'when'…
Probably right.
Thank goodness I will be ashes by then.
As an aside a think tank in Europe has determined that robots will displace 1.2 Billion workers in the next couple of decades.
They cannot figure yet what they will do with them. Some they figure will find work in new trades but probably not in as lucrative jobs.
I am not anxious to see a world where everything from assembly workers to waiters to taxi drivers and machinists literally everybody is replaced by robotics and autonomous machinery.
Let's not get all gloomy. Our intelligence got us here in the first place.
The industrial revolution giveth, the tech revolution keepeth on giving, only we can take it away...

On a more cheerful note, do yourself a favour and get out onto the track for a weekend. That's what I do. Gravel rash is a great way to keep our sense of superiority in check.