Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PhillipM]

I don't think it's likely that anyone does, but I'd like to know why you believe it's not possible?

[Mr.G]

5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched. The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm. The weight of the MGU-H (as defined in line 13 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) may not be less than 4kg.

Gearing not precluded.

And niether possible.

This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.

It can be geared by planetary gear box, you just can not change the gear ratio it need to be fixed like 1:3 or so... But honestly I'm thinking they are running at full speed (1:1)...

[saviour stivala]

I don't think it's likely that anyone does, but I'd like to know why you believe it's not possible?

"fixed speed ratio" the turbo max rpm 125k, the mgu-h max rpm 125k, gearing possibility does not make sense.

[saviour stivala]

As far as I am aware, Kimi is still using spec #1. His first PU is not being used, as it was salvageable.

Both should get spec 3 after the summer break (either Spa or Monza), which may feature a new head design.

Unbelievable reasoning logic. Everybody and his dog is talking about the jump in power output development progress made by FERRARI with their 062-2 power unit. If Kimi is running power unit version 062-1 which at Silverstone was 5 race old and Vettel is running power unit version 062-2 which at Silverstone was 3 race old, it means there is very little if any difference in power output between the 2 power units.

[saviour stivala]

In electric supercharging mode/free load mode the exhaust is byoassing the turbine and that is exactly why technically it is termed free load mode.

Once again you are not correct.

There are images showing wastegates venting the turbine on the periphery of the impeller housing, not before it. I won’t bother to show you any because I have learned that you have immutable opinions. No further discussion required. I only responded in case someone trips over your post and thinks it might be correct.

Good one that henry, you responded to my post on this here discussion forum and said what you had to say, but pronto and tipo spinto declares "no further discussion required".

[PhillipM]

"fixed speed ratio" the turbo max rpm 125k, the mgu-h max rpm 125k, gearing possibility does not make sense.

None of which precludes anyone from using gearing, should they wish to.

[saviour stivala]

As far as I am aware, Kimi is still using spec #1. His first PU is not being used, as it was salvageable.

Both should get spec 3 after the summer break (either Spa or Monza), which may feature a new head design.

In pre-season I read an article about Ferrari working on a new cylinder head concept which they wanted to bring any time in season. Obviously it's gonna be on spec 3 then.

Additive Manufacturing used in head, direct AM of the head. This was mentioned in the AM industry news recently with gains in cooling efficiency and weight reduction, honeycomb structuring used to improve cooling galleries with constant diameter reducing coolant volume and improving flow.
As for fuel chemistry with TJI Ferrari now likely have greater knowledge than Mercedes with Bill Attard it's inventor working at FCA while Elisa Toulson, his wife has been performing model development and experimental validation on TJI as associate professor at Michigan State University the two Australians who developed TJI such that it worked with liquid gasoline in prechamber. Bill also worked in the Bishop rotary valve development team for a few years. Now there's two Innovations who's features are screaming to be put together, so complimentary and symbiotic, the next engine regulations should encourage it.
The greater knowledge combined with new fuel chemistry the split battery could allow greater use of energy paths especially MGU-h, maybe different valve timing, turbine bypass.
Reducing the negative effects of the ES deployment being limited by the test
ES.stateOfCharge
Enforcing the 4MJ low to high window limit during race.

Is TJI combustion system which injects and ignites fuel in a pre-combustion chamber compitible with the FIA direct injection rules?.

[gruntguru]

2. Running "electric supercharger" is a less efficient use of ES energy than sending it to the K - therefore:

In my opinion if the MGU-H is generating at around 70kW they would, at Silverstone, be able to run the K all the time they are at WOT using less than energy from the ES than they can harvest. They would then have a choice, burn less fuel and harvest less or use electric supercharger at the beginning of straights. Or some mix of both.

I don't disagree. The only point I was making is that they would not use electric supercharger unless the K is already motoring at 100%. (This assumes the 4 MJ/lap limit to the K can be circumvented via the devious ES>H>K method).

[godlameroso]

As far as I am aware, Kimi is still using spec #1. His first PU is not being used, as it was salvageable.

Both should get spec 3 after the summer break (either Spa or Monza), which may feature a new head design.

In pre-season I read an article about Ferrari working on a new cylinder head concept which they wanted to bring any time in season. Obviously it's gonna be on spec 3 then.

Additive Manufacturing used in head, direct AM of the head. This was mentioned in the AM industry news recently with gains in cooling efficiency and weight reduction, honeycomb structuring used to improve cooling galleries with constant diameter reducing coolant volume and improving flow.
As for fuel chemistry with TJI Ferrari now likely have greater knowledge than Mercedes with Bill Attard it's inventor working at FCA while Elisa Toulson, his wife has been performing model development and experimental validation on TJI as associate professor at Michigan State University the two Australians who developed TJI such that it worked with liquid gasoline in prechamber. Bill also worked in the Bishop rotary valve development team for a few years. Now there's two Innovations who's features are screaming to be put together, so complimentary and symbiotic, the next engine regulations should encourage it.
The greater knowledge combined with new fuel chemistry the split battery could allow greater use of energy paths especially MGU-h, maybe different valve timing, turbine bypass.
Reducing the negative effects of the ES deployment being limited by the test
ES.stateOfCharge
Enforcing the 4MJ low to high window limit during race.

It's crazy to think about the fact that hydrogen and oxygen forming bonds with itself and carbon creates all this heat.

Regardless, Ferrari is taking the right approach, the model development and validation is key to getting all the gains out of the combustion concept. The problem is most F1 teams can't afford the hardware needed to study fuel kinetics properly, the large petrochemical companies sponsoring the cars CAN afford it. They also have the brains to not just develop the fuel but the combustion modeling as well, so that their partner F1 team can get the most out of the combustion process.

Shell is as big a petrochemical company as it gets, it's almost self evident Ferrari would make big gains with their fuel. Petronas is big, especially in Asia, however, I don't know if they compare to Shell. BP Castrol is also enormous so I don't know why they're lagging so far behind, same for Exxon Mobil. Maybe their relationship is not as close knit as Ferrari's is with Shell or Mercedes with Petronas.

[gruntguru]

. . . . In developing the PU there are two ways to get more energy from the fuel. Increase the crank power or increase the MGU-H power.

Increasing crank power is the most efficient if all you want to do is extract maximum power from the fuel. However increased crank power is deployed uniformly at every speed. At higher speeds increased crank power is simply eaten up by drag.

Increasing MGU-H power on the other hand allows you the ability to transfer energy to the ES when at high speed and use it at low speed. This is less efficient in absolute terms but more efficient in average speed and hence lap time.

This logic is fine if you take the rule book at face value. OTOH if the ES>H>K energy flow is acceptable and unlimited, the K>H>ES path would likewise be unlimited and allow unlimited conversion of fuel to ES energy - at the highest efficiency.

[godlameroso]

In pre-season I read an article about Ferrari working on a new cylinder head concept which they wanted to bring any time in season. Obviously it's gonna be on spec 3 then.

Additive Manufacturing used in head, direct AM of the head. This was mentioned in the AM industry news recently with gains in cooling efficiency and weight reduction, honeycomb structuring used to improve cooling galleries with constant diameter reducing coolant volume and improving flow.
As for fuel chemistry with TJI Ferrari now likely have greater knowledge than Mercedes with Bill Attard it's inventor working at FCA while Elisa Toulson, his wife has been performing model development and experimental validation on TJI as associate professor at Michigan State University the two Australians who developed TJI such that it worked with liquid gasoline in prechamber. Bill also worked in the Bishop rotary valve development team for a few years. Now there's two Innovations who's features are screaming to be put together, so complimentary and symbiotic, the next engine regulations should encourage it.
The greater knowledge combined with new fuel chemistry the split battery could allow greater use of energy paths especially MGU-h, maybe different valve timing, turbine bypass.
Reducing the negative effects of the ES deployment being limited by the test
ES.stateOfCharge
Enforcing the 4MJ low to high window limit during race.

Is TJI combustion system which injects and ignites fuel in a pre-combustion chamber compitible with the FIA direct injection rules?.

Not exactly, F1 rules only allow 1 injector, I don't know if that means one injector with one spray nozzle with fixed spray pattern. Or if a multi-stage injector is allowed, or if one side mounted injector is spraying both pre and main chambers. We know Honda has the injectors mounted on the exhaust side, the others could be doing something similar. What we don't know is the exact configuration of the injector, spark plug, and the obvious closely guarded secrets like combustion chamber geometry, piston dome geometry etc. The majority of fans don't know or don't care, and the ones that do(most of the people that come here), makes it so that people know they can come here for juicy tech details. Seeing as teams don't want to share that, these things will likely only appear once a concept becomes outdated/obsolete, for the simple fact that it takes substantial economic investment to duplicate.

[gruntguru]

I don't think it's likely that anyone does, but I'd like to know why you believe it's not possible?

"fixed speed ratio" the turbo max rpm 125k, the mgu-h max rpm 125k, gearing possibility does not make sense.

Please accept the interpretation given to you by several members who are "native" English speakers. "Fixed speed ratio" does not mean "fixed speed ratio equal to 1.0". As long as it is fixed, the ratio can be 0.5, 1.0, 2.0 - any number the designer chooses.

[gruntguru]

Is TJI combustion system which injects and ignites fuel in a pre-combustion chamber compitible with the FIA direct injection rules?.

This has been discussed here exhaustively over a number of years. I suggest you read at least this thread from the start. Probably some others as well.

[wuzak]

As far as I am aware, Kimi is still using spec #1. His first PU is not being used, as it was salvageable.

Both should get spec 3 after the summer break (either Spa or Monza), which may feature a new head design.

Unbelievable reasoning logic. Everybody and his dog is talking about the jump in power output development progress made by FERRARI with their 062-2 power unit. If Kimi is running power unit version 062-1 which at Silverstone was 5 race old and Vettel is running power unit version 062-2 which at Silverstone was 3 race old, it means there is very little if any difference in power output between the 2 power units.

Oops, meant to say Kimi's #1 ICE may not have been salvageable.

The old spec could get just as much benefit from new fuel as spec 2, I would think.

[saviour stivala]

Additive Manufacturing used in head, direct AM of the head. This was mentioned in the AM industry news recently with gains in cooling efficiency and weight reduction, honeycomb structuring used to improve cooling galleries with constant diameter reducing coolant volume and improving flow.
As for fuel chemistry with TJI Ferrari now likely have greater knowledge than Mercedes with Bill Attard it's inventor working at FCA while Elisa Toulson, his wife has been performing model development and experimental validation on TJI as associate professor at Michigan State University the two Australians who developed TJI such that it worked with liquid gasoline in prechamber. Bill also worked in the Bishop rotary valve development team for a few years. Now there's two Innovations who's features are screaming to be put together, so complimentary and symbiotic, the next engine regulations should encourage it.
The greater knowledge combined with new fuel chemistry the split battery could allow greater use of energy paths especially MGU-h, maybe different valve timing, turbine bypass.
Reducing the negative effects of the ES deployment being limited by the test
ES.stateOfCharge
Enforcing the 4MJ low to high window limit during race.

Is TJI combustion system which injects and ignites fuel in a pre-combustion chamber compitible with the FIA direct injection rules?.

Not exactly, F1 rules only allow 1 injector, I don't know if that means one injector with one spray nozzle with fixed spray pattern. Or if a multi-stage injector is allowed, or if one side mounted injector is spraying both pre and main chambers. We know Honda has the injectors mounted on the exhaust side, the others could be doing something similar. What we don't know is the exact configuration of the injector, spark plug, and the obvious closely guarded secrets like combustion chamber geometry, piston dome geometry etc. The majority of fans don't know or don't care, and the ones that do(most of the people that come here), makes it so that people know they can come here for juicy tech details. Seeing as teams don't want to share that, these things will likely only appear once a concept becomes outdated/obsolete, for the simple fact that it takes substantial economic investment to duplicate.

I was reading Munix post with interest re the point he mentioned "TJI" combustion system, i asked him if he thinks/believe if the said system is compitaible or not with FIA direct injection rules. You chose to answer my question but unfortunatly without answering my question. "is TJI combustion system compitible with FIA direct injection rules?".