Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ian_s]

"The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times."
-are you sure about this Wuzak?

I was under the impression that although the compressor and turbine is on a common shaft it is 'clutched' though.
IIRC, the rule states the connection between compressor and turbine can not be geared.

here's the full regulation, it cannot be clutched in that way.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to
a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and
within 25mm of the car centre plane. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the
shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.
The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

[Mr.G]

Good idea, but not possible under current regulations - you can have only one MGU-H (you need two for this) and turbo must be on the same crankshaft as compressor...

Most good ideas in F1 are about loopholes. What about one crankshaft which has MGU-H sitting both sides where axle freewheel is located - is there any regulations which prohibits such a arrangement. Energy flow can only be from or to MGU-H but if energy is made and consumed inside it....

The turbine and compressor are connected by a shaft, not a crankshaft (which is found within the engine).

The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times.

Yes you right, I'm not native speaker I wasn't sure if it is just shaft (rod?)... Anyway thanks for correction.

[wuzak]

The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times.

Ok, strict regulation. But how is FIA controlling that regulation as there's no rule how to implement it?

It's called a shaft. It mechanically links the compressor to the turbine.

[wuzak]

"The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times."
-are you sure about this Wuzak?

I was under the impression that although the compressor and turbine is on a common shaft it is 'clutched' though.
IIRC, the rule states the connection between compressor and turbine can not be geared.

The MGUH is can be clutched - that is, decoupled from the turbo.

[saviour stivala]

"The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times."
-are you sure about this Wuzak?

I was under the impression that although the compressor and turbine is on a common shaft it is 'clutched' though.
IIRC, the rule states the connection between compressor and turbine can not be geared.

here's the full regulation, it cannot be clutched in that way.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to
a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and
within 25mm of the car centre plane. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the
shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.
The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

the compressor and turbine must be on a common shaft, the mgu-h can be coupled to that shaft, all three, compressor, turbine and mgu-h rotates at the same speed, max 125k.

[wuzak]

"The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times."
-are you sure about this Wuzak?

I was under the impression that although the compressor and turbine is on a common shaft it is 'clutched' though.
IIRC, the rule states the connection between compressor and turbine can not be geared.

here's the full regulation, it cannot be clutched in that way.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to
a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and
within 25mm of the car centre plane. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the
shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.
The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

the compressor and turbine must be on a common shaft, the mgu-h can be coupled to that shaft, all three, compressor, turbine and mgu-h rotates at the same speed, max 125k.

The MGUH may turn at the same speed as the turbo, but it doesn't have to.

We've been here before. Fixed speed ratio means that the MGUH turns at a multiple of the speed of the turbo.
That could be 1, 0.5 or 50, so long as it is not variable and cannot be changed (with a mini gearbox).

[Big Tea]

here's the full regulation, it cannot be clutched in that way.

the compressor and turbine must be on a common shaft, the mgu-h can be coupled to that shaft, all three, compressor, turbine and mgu-h rotates at the same speed, max 125k.

The MGUH may turn at the same speed as the turbo, but it doesn't have to.

We've been here before. Fixed speed ratio means that the MGUH turns at a multiple of the speed of the turbo.
That could be 1, 0.5 or 50, so long as it is not variable and cannot be changed (with a mini gearbox).

If it can be clutched, can it not be geared for highest speed then reduce speed controlled by slip?

[ScrewCaptain27]

Alfa Sauber installation viewed from behind:

Credit MtthsMlw

[wuzak]

the compressor and turbine must be on a common shaft, the mgu-h can be coupled to that shaft, all three, compressor, turbine and mgu-h rotates at the same speed, max 125k.

The MGUH may turn at the same speed as the turbo, but it doesn't have to.

We've been here before. Fixed speed ratio means that the MGUH turns at a multiple of the speed of the turbo.
That could be 1, 0.5 or 50, so long as it is not variable and cannot be changed (with a mini gearbox).

If it can be clutched, can it not be geared for highest speed then reduce speed controlled by slip?

Slippage is losing power.

[subcritical71]

the compressor and turbine must be on a common shaft, the mgu-h can be coupled to that shaft, all three, compressor, turbine and mgu-h rotates at the same speed, max 125k.

The MGUH may turn at the same speed as the turbo, but it doesn't have to.

We've been here before. Fixed speed ratio means that the MGUH turns at a multiple of the speed of the turbo.
That could be 1, 0.5 or 50, so long as it is not variable and cannot be changed (with a mini gearbox).

If it can be clutched, can it not be geared for highest speed then reduce speed controlled by slip?

Interesting idea, maybe a type of torque converter clutch which can be modulated or locked up depending on desired operation. The regulation for the MGU-H does not specify that it needs to be the same angular velocity as the turbine and compressor, I don't see anything in the technical regulations that wouldn't allow slipping of the clutch.

[wuzak]

The MGUH may turn at the same speed as the turbo, but it doesn't have to.

We've been here before. Fixed speed ratio means that the MGUH turns at a multiple of the speed of the turbo.
That could be 1, 0.5 or 50, so long as it is not variable and cannot be changed (with a mini gearbox).

If it can be clutched, can it not be geared for highest speed then reduce speed controlled by slip?

Interesting idea, maybe a type of torque converter clutch which can be modulated or locked up depending on desired operation. The regulation for the MGU-H does not specify that it needs to be the same angular velocity as the turbine and compressor, I don't see anything in the technical regulations that wouldn't allow slipping of the clutch.

It is to be a fixed speed ratio. If the clutch is used for speed control rather than engaging and disengaging the MGUH I am sure it would be deemed illegal.

A torque converter is not a clutch, but a variable speed device.

[Big Tea]

If it can be clutched, can it not be geared for highest speed then reduce speed controlled by slip?

Interesting idea, maybe a type of torque converter clutch which can be modulated or locked up depending on desired operation. The regulation for the MGU-H does not specify that it needs to be the same angular velocity as the turbine and compressor, I don't see anything in the technical regulations that wouldn't allow slipping of the clutch.

It is to be a fixed speed ratio. If the clutch is used for speed control rather than engaging and disengaging the MGUH I am sure it would be deemed illegal.

A torque converter is not a clutch, but a variable speed device.

I used to race motocycles back in the days of wet multiplate clutches and no electronic rev limiters, and it was a known 'trick' to slip the clutch if you 'run out of gearing'. It reduces the load on the input and allows the output to gain just a little more speed. I know this is lightyears in advance of that, but the principle is known and proven.

[PhillipM]

I don't know how on earth that would work, all you're doing is wasting energy in the clutch slipping.
Slipping the clutch a little was common if your gearing was too long out of a corner to get the engine into the meat of the powerband, especially on highly tuned 2-strokes, but I can't see any way it could do what you're claiming.

[ian_s]

I can kinda see it working, but only by reaching your normal max speed, then slipping the clutch a little to let the engine rev higher but without losing much actualy drive, and then letting off the clutch again. the inertia in the faster spinning engine might give you a little boost

[Tommy Cookers]

the MGU-H has continuous variability of .....
its loading of the turbine wrt turbine rpm independent of its rpm relationship with the turbine rpm

how much variability of the H's rpm relationship with the turbine rpm do people want - and for what ?