Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PhillipM]

Fully agree, the turbo/MGU-H maximum RPM situation is the same as that of the ICE, hardly anybody ever try and approach the maximum RPM. But that doesn’t mean that those maximum RPM’S are not mandated. The actual and factual specification is as follows:. Energy recover system ERS:
Max exhaust turbine RPM = 125K.
Max MGU-H RPM = 125k.
Max power MGU-H = unlimited.
Max energy recovery per lap MGU-H = unlimited.
Max energy deployment per lap = unlimited.
Max energy storage per lap = 4MJ.
Max MGU-K RPM = 50K.
Max power MGU-K = 120KW/161BHP.
Max MGU-K energy recovery per lap = 2MJ.
Max MGU-K energy deployment per lap = 4MJ (33.33 seconds full power).
The other day henry was saying that with the turbo exhaust waste gates open the exhaust gasses are still able to assist turbine rotation. I invite him have a look at Andy Cowell graphically explaining the way exhaust gasses bypasses the turbine (Mercedes 2016 F1 exhaust explained).

See, now you're back to just making things up again, same as with the 'direct drive' stuff you pull out of mid air.
Max ES to MGU-K deployment per lap is 4MJ.
Max MGU-K deployment per lap has no limit bar 120kw x lap time.

And yes, max rpms are mandated, so what?
That doesn't stop someone running the turbo at a max of 100krpm and the H at 125krpm through gearing, or vice versa. They're maximums only, same as nobody uses the maximum 15krpm limit on the engine.

[henry]

I don’t know if this has been posted before, but it’s a great read on the strategies that could be employed on the PU’s. It was written just prior to the 2014 season. Much of its contents are very much applicable today.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82194974.pdf

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to compare it with the 2013 paper by Prof. Lime beer et al,
“Optimal control of Formula One car energy recovery systems”, which supposedly was work for Ferrari.

I can’t now find a link to the original Limebeer paper, here’s a presentation about it https://www.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pd ... 0-2014.pdf

[henry]

The other day henry was saying that with the turbo exhaust waste gates open the exhaust gasses are still able to assist turbine rotation. I invite him have a look at Andy Cowell graphically explaining the way exhaust gasses bypasses the turbine (Mercedes 2016 F1 exhaust explained).

Thanks for that “link”. Andy Cowell definitely does draw a diagram showing the exhaust gases completely bypassing the turbo. I obviously cannot dispute that.

He does also say that he is drawing a “very simplified turbocharger housing”. My view of the simplification colours my understanding of where the bypass actually happens as opposed to his drawing.

It makes little difference whether we agree or not. It’s only impact is to vary the estimation of the power drain from the ES to the MGU-H during electric supercharger operation. In turn this varies the duration for which the MGU-K can be driven at 120kW. Since we have an unresolvable difference on MGU-K drive time this small difference in power makes no difference to the conclusions we each arrive at.

[sosic2121]

I think you should watch another Andy Cowell video, about derating in Baku.
He said they can deploy full 120kw during Q, but they can't do it lap after lap during the race, because lap is very long (not sure about that). But he also said that in Canada they can deploy all the time. He said: "it's easy to do it".

There goes your 33 seconds theory...

Anyone knows what are WOT times in Canada and Azerbaijan? Have some math to do

[saviour stivala]

Apart from the blab blab blab for verification of the factual/actual specification numbers/figures I posted can be checked for verification at. “AMG Petronas motorsport: PU106C hybrid”. The “F1 exhaust explained” can also be found on there, but also can be found and the explanation heard and seen at “new 2016 F1 exhaust explained” you tube.
Also @henry, “optimal control of formula one car energy recovery system:- D.J.N. Limebeer, G. Perantoni and A.V. Rao.”.
Also “McCabism:- optimal control theory and FERRARI’s turbo-electric hybrid”.

[saviour stivala]

The other day henry was saying that with the turbo exhaust waste gates open the exhaust gasses are still able to assist turbine rotation. I invite him have a look at Andy Cowell graphically explaining the way exhaust gasses bypasses the turbine (Mercedes 2016 F1 exhaust explained).

Thanks for that “link”. Andy Cowell definitely does draw a diagram showing the exhaust gases completely bypassing the turbo. I obviously cannot dispute that.

He does also say that he is drawing a “very simplified turbocharger housing”. My view of the simplification colours my understanding of where the bypass actually happens as opposed to his drawing.

It makes little difference whether we agree or not. It’s only impact is to vary the estimation of the power drain from the ES to the MGU-H during electric supercharger operation. In turn this varies the duration for which the MGU-K can be driven at 120kW. Since we have an unresolvable difference on MGU-K drive time this small difference in power makes no difference to the conclusions we each arrive at.

henry. the whole scope of electric supercharging mode is the maximum gains possible by means of "free load", no exhaust back pressure, this by having the exhaust gasses cmplately bypassing the turbine.

[saviour stivala]

I don’t know if this has been posted before, but it’s a great read on the strategies that could be employed on the PU’s. It was written just prior to the 2014 season. Much of its contents are very much applicable today.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82194974.pdf

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to compare it with the 2013 paper by Prof. Lime beer et al,
“Optimal control of Formula One car energy recovery systems”, which supposedly was work for Ferrari.

I can’t now find a link to the original Limebeer paper, here’s a presentation about it https://www.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pd ... 0-2014.pdf

The original Linebeer research was commissioned by FERRARI way before the turbo hybrid first ran on a race track, it was commissioned at the time that FERRARI was putting/accumulating miles on the road mostly on their privet test track with their hybrid fitted into one of their road cars.

[sosic2121]

Anyone knows what are WOT times in Canada and Azerbaijan? Have some math to do

I did some basic calculations and it seems in Baku they need 7.5MJ to power the K entire lap, and in Canada it's 5.5MJ. It means that in race conditions they can harvest let's say 6.5MJ.
That then implies that during Q lap they have around 10MJ to play with.

[PhillipM]

henry. the whole scope of electric supercharging mode is the maximum gains possible by means of "free load", no exhaust back pressure, this by having the exhaust gasses cmplately bypassing the turbine.

You're always going to get some exhaust gas running through the turbine, and you're always going to get some blowdown energy from the pulse tuning, which is why nobody is on log manifolds any more.
Even with the biggest wastegates in the world the turbine is still taking energy from the exhaust.

[subcritical71]

I don’t know if this has been posted before, but it’s a great read on the strategies that could be employed on the PU’s. It was written just prior to the 2014 season. Much of its contents are very much applicable today.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82194974.pdf

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to compare it with the 2013 paper by Prof. Lime beer et al,
“Optimal control of Formula One car energy recovery systems”, which supposedly was work for Ferrari.

I can’t now find a link to the original Limebeer paper, here’s a presentation about it https://www.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pd ... 0-2014.pdf

Actually, my first link was good, but I gave the wrong link. So here is the original I wanted to do.
http://hybridfordonscentrum.se/wp-conte ... n_ver1.pdf
Both are very good reads.

[saviour stivala]

I once had a calculator that was confusing me no end with the numbers showing up so I promptly replaced it.

[saviour stivala]

henry. the whole scope of electric supercharging mode is the maximum gains possible by means of "free load", no exhaust back pressure, this by having the exhaust gasses cmplately bypassing the turbine.

You're always going to get some exhaust gas running through the turbine, and you're always going to get some blowdown energy from the pulse tuning, which is why nobody is on log manifolds any more.
Even with the biggest wastegates in the world the turbine is still taking energy from the exhaust.

With the waste gates situated before the turbine scroll any/if any, exhaust exhaust gasses enters the scroll the gasses energy inside the scrol is as good as dead.

[hurril]

With the waste gates situated before the turbine scroll any/if any, exhaust exhaust gasses enters the scroll the gasses energy inside the scrol is as good as dead.

Not really, no.

[MtthsMlw]

New article from AMuS
Shortened:

GPS measurements show that Ferrari has been gaining an exorbitant amount of time on the straights since two races. Calculations speak of a gain of up to 30 kilowatts (40hp).
Since the Austrian GP, Renault and Mercedes have again been measuring suspicious performance data via GPS. From a speed of 150 km/h the gap opens. Until then, the speed graphs are parallel. Then suddenly the red line for Ferrari moves away from the curves that stand for Mercedes and Renault.
If this phenomenon were explained by engine power alone, this would make a difference of 30 kilowatts. The competition claims to have determined that Ferrari recalls an energy of 4.4 megajoules per lap. 4.0 megajoules are permitted. [this is wrong].
The MGU-K will therefore feed 150kw (204 hp) instead of the permitted 120 kilowatts (163 hp) into the system. [wrong too imo]
At Silverstone, Mercedes noted with concern that Ferrari had significantly less de-rating in the race.

The assumption that Ferrari would rather use the electric power in the second part of the straight than in the first makes little sense. Most of the lap time is gained in the first part of the acceleration phase. Apparently Ferrari does not have to make sacrifices either at the beginning of a straight line or at the end.
Strangely enough, the power boost at Ferrari did not come with the introduction of the Spec2 engine at the GP Canada, but only two races later in Austria. That would speak for a software change, since the new hardware has already been in use for two races.

Meanwhile we hear that the Ferrari coup has nothing to do with the electric power from the MGU-K.
Does Ferrari use the MGU-H smarter than the competition? Usually this costs the combustion engine too much power because of the exhaust back pressure. That wouldn't explain 30 kilowatts. But perhaps Ferrari has found a way to reduce the power loss of the combustion engine.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote="saviour stivala"]With the waste gates situated before the turbine scroll any/if any, exhaust exhaust gasses enters the scroll the gasses energy inside the scrol is as good as dead.[/quote]

Wright made 14000 aircraft engines that gained 6 to 18% exhaust power recovery without reduction of crankshaft power
6% more power at low power sea level cruise and 18% more power at takeoff
this (slightly) changed the world

it is blowdown recovery
there is energy turbine-recoverable from the exhaust pulses in an exhaust stream at ambient pressure