Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

So you think that when wastegate opens turbocharged engine boost goes to zero instantly? Recovered energy from exhaust gases from turbine are from exhaust gas speed, that speed part is just the same whether wastegate is open or closed. Wastegate releases exhaust back pressure, which is harmful for engine performance but which is beneficial for turbine to extract more energy from exhaust flow. So with wastegate open they can harvest less energy from exhaust gases, but that less is probably nearer to full harvest capability than zero harvesting.

I'd look at it a little differently. The rules specify the min/max of the exhaust and waste gate pipes.
Total cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe must be between 7,500 and 14,000mm2.
Total cross sectional area of the waste gate pipe(s) must be between 1,590 and 2,375mm2.

Let's go with worst case scenario, for this point, of a team using a 7,500mm2 exhaust outlet (minimum allowed) and a 2,375mm2 wastegate pipe (maximum allowed). How does opening the wastegate pipe even to fully open cause a 100% flow diversion through the wastegate pipe?

I'm sure some basic calculations knowing RPM and cylinder volume will support that the turbine will never see zero flow.

When Professor D.J.M. Linebeer and his research team termed the FERRARI exhaust bypassing of the turbine scroll “free load mode” they must have known what they were talking about, no load/free load mode they meant “any/if any” exhaust gasses that finds their way into the turbine scroll after the waste gates which are situated before the exhaust turbine scroll are fully open, are “as good as dead” as regards any energy left in them.

[saviour stivala]

Some people on here seems to not being able to understand the difference in design and scope between a normal run of the mill/off the shelve turbocharger as used on a road going engine and that of the formula one turbocharger design and scope of use. The normal turbocharger as found on a road going engine have the waste gate build-in into the scroll housing and when it opens is meant relieve the exhaust gasses pressure and so the exhaust gasses energy by bypassing a controlled amount to the scroll exhaust outlet. The turbocharger as used in formula one is totally different in scope and design, the waste gates are not part of or build into the exhaust scroll, they are separate, they are situated at the end of each of the exhaust manifold and before the exhaust scroll, when open they are meant to bypass exhaust gasses away from the scroll and directly into each of their own dedicated and separate exhaust pipes.

[Nonserviam85]

40hp gain is something huge in terms of engine development, especially in this stage of the development cycle! Is it possible though that this is not only engine related and Ferrari found a new clever way to stall aerodynamic parts to gain this speed increase?

[holeindalip]

40hp gain is something huge in terms of engine development, especially in this stage of the development cycle! Is it possible though that this is not only engine related and Ferrari found a new clever way to stall aerodynamic parts to gain this speed increase?

Exactly what I was thinking, maybe we are looking at the wrong area when we should be looking at the bargeboards.... Just a guess and ot from the engine thread

I remember somebody talking about bargeboards with a fluidic design on the McLaren being debuted this year

[subcritical71]

40hp gain is something huge in terms of engine development, especially in this stage of the development cycle! Is it possible though that this is not only engine related and Ferrari found a new clever way to stall aerodynamic parts to gain this speed increase?

Exactly what I was thinking, maybe we are looking at the wrong area when we should be looking at the bargeboards.... Just a guess and ot from the engine thread

I remember somebody talking about bargeboards with a fluidic design on the McLaren being debuted this year

I forget which team it was, but they hid a part of the car and everyone was looking at all different angles to find the change. What they didn’t know was that the change was at the other end of the car, in plain sight, going unnoticed.

[saviour stivala]

The big surprise this time is the length of time being wasted looking for cheating possibilities.

[Big Tea]

40hp gain is something huge in terms of engine development, especially in this stage of the development cycle! Is it possible though that this is not only engine related and Ferrari found a new clever way to stall aerodynamic parts to gain this speed increase?

Exactly what I was thinking, maybe we are looking at the wrong area when we should be looking at the bargeboards.... Just a guess and ot from the engine thread

I remember somebody talking about bargeboards with a fluidic design on the McLaren being debuted this year

I forget which team it was, but they hid a part of the car and everyone was looking at all different angles to find the change. What they didn’t know was that the change was at the other end of the car, in plain sight, going unnoticed.

Lotus. They made a show of hiding the gearbox and no one noticed the tunnel.
Far to many cameras today I think.

I did start thinking of that, but it is not just Ferrari Ferrari improved, its all the Ferrari engine cars.

[saviour stivala]

Anyone knows what are WOT times in Canada and Azerbaijan? Have some math to do

I did some basic calculations and it seems in Baku they need 7.5MJ to power the K entire lap, and in Canada it's 5.5MJ. It means that in race conditions they can harvest let's say 6.5MJ.
That then implies that during Q lap they have around 10MJ to play with.

If they stick within what the rules allow re deployment per lap (max 4MJ/LAP) and they managed max deployment for lap after lap, at Silverstone they would have deployed 208MJ over the whole race distance.

[subcritical71]

Exactly what I was thinking, maybe we are looking at the wrong area when we should be looking at the bargeboards.... Just a guess and ot from the engine thread

I remember somebody talking about bargeboards with a fluidic design on the McLaren being debuted this year

I forget which team it was, but they hid a part of the car and everyone was looking at all different angles to find the change. What they didn’t know was that the change was at the other end of the car, in plain sight, going unnoticed.

Lotus. They made a show of hiding the gearbox and no one noticed the tunnel.
Far to many cameras today I think.

I did start thinking of that, but it is not just Ferrari Ferrari improved, its all the Ferrari engine cars.

That was it. It was during a podcast with Matthew Carter, former Lotus Engineer, it was an awesome listen.
https://missedapexpodcast.com/episode-l ... 8cgcscgx4c

[henry]

So you think that when wastegate opens turbocharged engine boost goes to zero instantly? Recovered energy from exhaust gases from turbine are from exhaust gas speed, that speed part is just the same whether wastegate is open or closed. Wastegate releases exhaust back pressure, which is harmful for engine performance but which is beneficial for turbine to extract more energy from exhaust flow. So with wastegate open they can harvest less energy from exhaust gases, but that less is probably nearer to full harvest capability than zero harvesting.

I'd look at it a little differently. The rules specify the min/max of the exhaust and waste gate pipes.
Total cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe must be between 7,500 and 14,000mm2.
Total cross sectional area of the waste gate pipe(s) must be between 1,590 and 2,375mm2.

Let's go with worst case scenario, for this point, of a team using a 7,500mm2 exhaust outlet (minimum allowed) and a 2,375mm2 wastegate pipe (maximum allowed). How does opening the wastegate pipe even to fully open cause a 100% flow diversion through the wastegate pipe?

I'm sure some basic calculations knowing RPM and cylinder volume will support that the turbine will never see zero flow.

When Professor D.J.M. Linebeer and his research team termed the FERRARI exhaust bypassing of the turbine scroll “free load mode” they must have known what they were talking about, no load/free load mode they meant “any/if any” exhaust gasses that finds their way into the turbine scroll after the waste gates which are situated before the exhaust turbine scroll are fully open, are “as good as dead” as regards any energy left in them.

Funnily enough my copy of prof Limebeer’s paper doesn’t refer to free load mode. Can you point me at a copy that does please?

[LM10]

Does anyone know if the twin-battery arrangement of Ferrari has been a known fact for years now or was it revealed after FIA's investigations? In one of the videos of Scarbs where he describes the twin-battery they told that thank to the investigations now they know that Ferrari is using that battery and has been using it since 2014. That's why I'm asking.

If yes, why was Ferrari OK with it being revealed?

[saviour stivala]

With the waste gates situated before the turbine scroll any/if any, exhaust exhaust gasses enters the scroll the gasses energy inside the scrol is as good as dead.

Wright made 14000 aircraft engines that gained 6 to 18% exhaust power recovery without reduction of crankshaft power
6% more power at low power sea level cruise and 18% more power at takeoff
this (slightly) changed the world

it is blowdown recovery
there is energy turbine-recoverable from the exhaust pulses in an exhaust stream at ambient pressure

Trying to compare the 18 cylinder double row cyclone exhaust turbo compounding to justify an argument that “any/if any” exhaust gasses finds their way into the turbine scroll from a fully open waste gate is not “as good as dead” energy wise, is worse than trying to compare apples to oranges. Because in the cyclone turbo exhaust compounding each of the three power recovery turbines was driven by the direct exhaust gasses from three front row and three rear row cylinders directly and not from the “as good as dead” energy wise exhaust gasses from a fully open waste gate.

[aleks_ader]

Anyone knows what are WOT times in Canada and Azerbaijan? Have some math to do

I did some basic calculations and it seems in Baku they need 7.5MJ to power the K entire lap, and in Canada it's 5.5MJ. It means that in race conditions they can harvest let's say 6.5MJ.
That then implies that during Q lap they have around 10MJ to play with.

If they stick within what the rules allow re deployment per lap (max 4MJ/LAP {NOPE}) and they managed max deployment for lap after lap, at Silverstone they would have deployed 208MJ over the whole race distance.

[saviour stivala]

I'd look at it a little differently. The rules specify the min/max of the exhaust and waste gate pipes.
Total cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe must be between 7,500 and 14,000mm2.
Total cross sectional area of the waste gate pipe(s) must be between 1,590 and 2,375mm2.

Let's go with worst case scenario, for this point, of a team using a 7,500mm2 exhaust outlet (minimum allowed) and a 2,375mm2 wastegate pipe (maximum allowed). How does opening the wastegate pipe even to fully open cause a 100% flow diversion through the wastegate pipe?

I'm sure some basic calculations knowing RPM and cylinder volume will support that the turbine will never see zero flow.

When Professor D.J.M. Linebeer and his research team termed the FERRARI exhaust bypassing of the turbine scroll “free load mode” they must have known what they were talking about, no load/free load mode they meant “any/if any” exhaust gasses that finds their way into the turbine scroll after the waste gates which are situated before the exhaust turbine scroll are fully open, are “as good as dead” as regards any energy left in them.

Funnily enough my copy of prof Limebeer’s paper doesn’t refer to free load mode. Can you point me at a copy that does please?

Profs Limebeer and his research team were the poeople that first termed the electric supercharging with waste gates fully open "free load mode" i will try later on and trace the orriginal papaer/report and post the link.

[henry]

When Professor D.J.M. Linebeer and his research team termed the FERRARI exhaust bypassing of the turbine scroll “free load mode” they must have known what they were talking about, no load/free load mode they meant “any/if any” exhaust gasses that finds their way into the turbine scroll after the waste gates which are situated before the exhaust turbine scroll are fully open, are “as good as dead” as regards any energy left in them.

Funnily enough my copy of prof Limebeer’s paper doesn’t refer to free load mode. Can you point me at a copy that does please?

Profs Limebeer and his research team were the poeople that first termed the electric supercharging with waste gates fully open "free load mode" i will try later on and trace the orriginal papaer/report and post the link.

Thanks. That will be helpful.