Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[bill shoe]

This whole engine situation just keeps getting weirder.. In the recent episode of Formel Schmidt (AMuS) Michael Schmidt said the following things after talking with Andy Cowell:
- the jump in performance (supposedly 38hp) came in Austria
- Only Ferrari gained this much performance not Sauber and Haas
- Merc's data analysis shows that they are equal on power until 250km/h with Ferrari, after that Ferrari pulls away drastically

I've heard different interview with Toto of Merc, and he said Merc and Ferrari are even on the straights up to the point where accel stops being traction-limited, and from then on Ferrari easily pulls away. Traction-limited stops at ~ 150 kph. This is a very different scenario than the cars separating at 250 kph like the Andy Cowell interview.

A difference that started at 150 kph would imply higher peak power. A difference that started at 250 kph would imply either less aero drag or a longer sustaining of existing peak power enabled by, um, well, mechanism unclear as has been discussed in this thread extensively.

[wuzak]

Didn't Vettel have a weird acceleration boost on the China straight in quali?

He was behind Kimi and had the worse corner exit but at some point accelerated like crazy to get pole.

That was called a slipstream.

[siskue2005]

Didn't Vettel have a weird acceleration boost on the China straight in quali?

He was behind Kimi and had the worse corner exit but at some point accelerated like crazy to get pole.

That was called a slipstream.

There was no one in front of Vettel while on his pole lap..... moreover Vettel was pressing the 3rd paddle while on the straight at that point, could that point to some.extra deployment From ERS ?

[Hammerfist]

This whole engine situation just keeps getting weirder.. In the recent episode of Formel Schmidt (AMuS) Michael Schmidt said the following things after talking with Andy Cowell:
- the jump in performance (supposedly 38hp) came in Austria
- Only Ferrari gained this much performance not Sauber and Haas
- Merc's data analysis shows that they are equal on power until 250km/h with Ferrari, after that Ferrari pulls away drastically

I've heard different interview with Toto of Merc, and he said Merc and Ferrari are even on the straights up to the point where accel stops being traction-limited, and from then on Ferrari easily pulls away. Traction-limited stops at ~ 150 kph. This is a very different scenario than the cars separating at 250 kph like the Andy Cowell interview.

A difference that started at 150 kph would imply higher peak power. A difference that started at 250 kph would imply either less aero drag or a longer sustaining of existing peak power enabled by, um, well, mechanism unclear as has been discussed in this thread extensively.

It really sounds like deployment to me. Somehow they might be able to deploy electrical power when others are experiencing de-rating?

I am not buying that 38hp can be responsible for 0.5sec, not when we are talking about 1000hp+ machines, to which 38hp is a very small percentage.

But if they are somehow able to put down 160hp more when others can't, then that would explain it.

[saviour stivala]

So both the energy to harvest and deploy goes through the same ES sensor? I must have missed that.

There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K.

I have no idea how they manage the energy flow regulations with just those two. SOC seems relatively straightforward.

Fully agree henry. Would like to add the following. These two sensors are to FIA specification and placed at FIA specified measuring positions, their measured readings are recorded by the car data logger with the FIA having access to the data logger at all time, all this is per FIA rules and regulations. The sensor that measure everything that goes in and out of the ES is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the ES or out of ES to other ERS components might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of ES is limited. The sensor that measures everything that goes in and out of the MGU-K is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the MGU-K or out of MGU-K (from or to) might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of MGU-K is limited. Those other components of the ERS that their in and out of them is listed as being unlimited does not need any FIA measuring sensor.
"There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K".

[henry]

This whole engine situation just keeps getting weirder.. In the recent episode of Formel Schmidt (AMuS) Michael Schmidt said the following things after talking with Andy Cowell:
- the jump in performance (supposedly 38hp) came in Austria
- Only Ferrari gained this much performance not Sauber and Haas
- Merc's data analysis shows that they are equal on power until 250km/h with Ferrari, after that Ferrari pulls away drastically

I've heard different interview with Toto of Merc, and he said Merc and Ferrari are even on the straights up to the point where accel stops being traction-limited, and from then on Ferrari easily pulls away. Traction-limited stops at ~ 150 kph. This is a very different scenario than the cars separating at 250 kph like the Andy Cowell interview.

A difference that started at 150 kph would imply higher peak power. A difference that started at 250 kph would imply either less aero drag or a longer sustaining of existing peak power enabled by, um, well, mechanism unclear as has been discussed in this thread extensively.

Longer sustain of peak power could come from a couple of things.

More SOC to play with. So all the ways that harvest come in to play, plus any ability to maximise the use of the batteries.

Lower MGU-H power demand. Perhaps the turbine makes more power from blowdown. Perhaps the compressor is more efficient.

If they have found a way to get more from the MGU-H, that would likely affect both of these and allow longer deployment(s).

I don’t think we can discount chassis and aero either. If the customer teams don’t show this behaviour it’s possible that their deployment schedules are different, not because of default programming but because of behaviours learned during practise. And those behaviours will be dependent on chassis and aero performance.

[LM10]

Didn't Vettel have a weird acceleration boost on the China straight in quali?

He was behind Kimi and had the worse corner exit but at some point accelerated like crazy to get pole.

the tinfoil hat enthusiast in me wonders: what if that was already an earlier form of the hard to explain straight line performance boost which was related to their 'battery trick' which they lost after the FIA interfered and they found a way to circumvent the FIA measurements (again?)

"Again"? When was this the case? Maybe you can provide me with some facts?

[keroro.90]

Mark Hughes: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repo ... rix-report

Ferrari has been doing great work on its power unit, giving it a clear advantage. There are suggestions that its twin battery arrangement might have allowed a recent breakthrough in allowing it to simultaneously deploy and harvest. So, for example, one battery could be deploying to the MGUk while the MGUh is harvesting for the other battery.

The recent gains, whatever they are, have been spectacular and apply just as much to the spec 1 engine still in Räikkönen’s car as to the spec 2 units in everyone else’s.

I read that too. Fantastic idea! Way to go Ferrari!

Obviously a step in the right direction. I remember reading that it was still one battery but treated as two virtual batteries, is there any new information on their setup?

Yes,it seems that these two batteries can be allocated and reallocated, so basically just imagine that you have 200 cells, then the software will decide how many cells in each of the two batteries.

[kalinka]

Just my 2 cents already stated on 31st May :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21958&p=768654#p768654

[turbof1]

No more insinuations about cheating please. This is a technical forum, not a politic populistic one.

[bonjon1979]

I read that too. Fantastic idea! Way to go Ferrari!

Obviously a step in the right direction. I remember reading that it was still one battery but treated as two virtual batteries, is there any new information on their setup?

Yes,it seems that these two batteries can be allocated and reallocated, so basically just imagine that you have 200 cells, then the software will decide how many cells in each of the two batteries.

That seems like a very clever interpretation of the rules. Can't imagine that it easy to copy either. Don't quite see how Mercedes can keep on par with them through the rest of the year now. They're going to be absolutely mighty around spa.

[Big Tea]

So both the energy to harvest and deploy goes through the same ES sensor? I must have missed that.

There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K.

I have no idea how they manage the energy flow regulations with just those two. SOC seems relatively straightforward.

Fully agree henry. Would like to add the following. These two sensors are to FIA specification and placed at FIA specified measuring positions, their measured readings are recorded by the car data logger with the FIA having access to the data logger at all time, all this is per FIA rules and regulations. The sensor that measure everything that goes in and out of the ES is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the ES or out of ES to other ERS components might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of ES is limited. The sensor that measures everything that goes in and out of the MGU-K is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the MGU-K or out of MGU-K (from or to) might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of MGU-K is limited. Those other components of the ERS that their in and out of them is listed as being unlimited does not need any FIA measuring sensor.
"There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K".

Which seams to suggest they have developed a method of producing power and feeding it directly, without troubling the ES at all. It has to be from the H.

[subcritical71]

Just my 2 cents already stated on 31st May :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21958&p=768654#p768654

Thanks for that, I didn’t remember that being mentioned before. While I understand the splitting of the ES, I just can’t yet get my head around why that is of benefit. Is it able to use the SOC in different ways then we’ve thought about before?

[JesperA]

There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K.

I have no idea how they manage the energy flow regulations with just those two. SOC seems relatively straightforward.

Fully agree henry. Would like to add the following. These two sensors are to FIA specification and placed at FIA specified measuring positions, their measured readings are recorded by the car data logger with the FIA having access to the data logger at all time, all this is per FIA rules and regulations. The sensor that measure everything that goes in and out of the ES is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the ES or out of ES to other ERS components might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of ES is limited. The sensor that measures everything that goes in and out of the MGU-K is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the MGU-K or out of MGU-K (from or to) might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of MGU-K is limited. Those other components of the ERS that their in and out of them is listed as being unlimited does not need any FIA measuring sensor.
"There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K".

Which seams to suggest they have developed a method of producing power and feeding it directly, without troubling the ES at all. It has to be from the H.

Doubt that is the difference between Ferrari and the other teams since in the rule it states: "An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K.", if your guess would be true then all other non-Ferrari teams would have overlooked that, which they obviously haven't. Sure, the effectiveness can be different but not this much that some say is equivalent of 2 years engine development (maybe the 2 years is just media sensationalism but still)

[Big Tea]

Fully agree henry. Would like to add the following. These two sensors are to FIA specification and placed at FIA specified measuring positions, their measured readings are recorded by the car data logger with the FIA having access to the data logger at all time, all this is per FIA rules and regulations. The sensor that measure everything that goes in and out of the ES is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the ES or out of ES to other ERS components might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of ES is limited. The sensor that measures everything that goes in and out of the MGU-K is mandated because regardless that some of what is thrown at the MGU-K or out of MGU-K (from or to) might be UNLIMITTED, what goes in and out of MGU-K is limited. Those other components of the ERS that their in and out of them is listed as being unlimited does not need any FIA measuring sensor.
"There are TWO sensors. One measures everything in and out of the ES, the other everything in and out of the MGU-K".

Which seams to suggest they have developed a method of producing power and feeding it directly, without troubling the ES at all. It has to be from the H.

Doubt that is the difference between Ferrari and the other teams since in the rule it states: "An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K.", if your guess would be true then all other non-Ferrari teams would have overlooked that, which they obviously haven't. Sure, the effectiveness can be different but not this much that some say is equivalent of 2 years engine development (maybe the 2 years is just media sensationalism but still)

It may just be one of those things no one has thought of, or looked at a rule that way. Just because it has not been done, does not mean it is not simple. That it appeared to be more effective at the higher end rather than low end suggests to me (no expert) that it gets its benefit from higher RPM, but equally, as was suggested by someone else here, it may be a misdirect and is not even engine/pu related at all, but hints just to keep the opposition wasting their time in the wrong place.