2018 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 20-22

[sosic2121]

Vettel deliberately crashed into an opponents car last year and got a slap on the wrist.

10s stop&go is slap on the wrist?

Seeing as Santino Ferruci got disqualified post-race and then given a four-race ban in F2 last week for deliberately crashing into a competitor, yes - it probably is. Likewise he only received a 5 second penalty in France for crashing into Bottas, Kimi then got a 10 second penalty at Silverstone for doing exactly the same thing and hitting Hamilton.

Rules should be rules but unfortunately they frequently aren’t.

I've heard there was also some racism involved in Ferruci incident.
On the other hand, I agree that rules should be rules. No matter what team we support, I think we can agree that top 3 teams have special treatment.
I agree that about Seb and Kimi getting different penalties. I would love to see what Lewis or Max would get...

[Mattchu]

How much money changes hands during these long meetings with Charlie?

Pretty sure Charlie wasn`t in the meeting, it was stewards...

p.s. Nice post TAG, I still feel sad when i see Jules Bianchis` name written relating to F1.

A lot don`t seem to be giving credit to the drive Hamilton did on his first stint, the pass of Sirotkin round the outside of the sachs curve was superb, some great stuff going on further down the field as well, brilliant drive by Hulkenberg even though he went on inters [wrong call] he still managed 5th. Nice by Grosjean as well for a change!

[cooken]

Well true enough on that, but Bottas on S vs Ham on US an on damp track, that's to be expected even without considering Hams skill in wet. Tyre temp I reckon certainly was playing a factor and not surprising Seb had better pace than Bot given Ferraris characteristics there.

Eh? I'm not sure I get you. The Mercedes tends to keep its tyres warmer than the Ferrari as far as I can tell.

Points that back up this view point:

• At the circuits with the thinner tyre treads, Mercedes have had an advantage - it's harder to get heat into the thinner treads because they move around less. Mercedes putting more heat into their tyres makes them work better

• Mercedes had an advantage for the whole weekend at Austria until race day, that advantage reversed on race day, suggesting that in P1/2/3/Q Ferrari struggled to warm the tyres, while at the race, Mercedes struggled to cool them.

• Mercedes have historically been (and still are) better on harder tyres than on softer. They get less of an advantage from softer rubber than Ferrari does. The softer tyres have both a lower operating window, and move around on, making them easier to heat up. Keeping the tyres warmer explains this.

• Mercedes do poorly in Singapore - a circuit that has the perfect storm of lots of braking (raising brake and tyre temps), soft rubber, and high track temperatures.

• You often see Ferrari taking 2 hot laps in qualifying, while Mercedes only take one, suggesting that the Mercedes gets temperature into the tyres fast, while the Ferrari needs a lap to build up the temperature.

I think a cooler track actually favoured the Mercedes. That, plus Hamilton having the better tyres for the cooling track, plus Hamilton being a rain master added up to Hamilton being multiple seconds a lap faster.

Well my main point wasn't to discuss tyres too specifically but I guess I opened myself to it. I'll concede to you that in general what you describe appears to be the trend. However, I'll add that Ferrari seem overall better able to achieve and maintain optimal tyre temps in a wide range of conditions, not just keep them from overheating. Another curious thing though, is that in this race in particular, early on Ferrari seemed to actually be overheating their tyres, moreso than Merc. I think there was some blistering for both Seb and Kimi no?

But whatever, it isn't my intent to argue that Vettel wasn't pushing.

[Andres125sx]

It got Schumacher excluded from the championship back in '97...

How a stewarts decision from more than two decades ago should affect a decision today?

It's like that argument from some people claiming there was previous unfair decisions in the past so a fair decision today is actually unfair

I was just pointing out that Vettel might have been treated more harshly back in the day.

oops sorry my bad, I took it the other way around

[GrandAxe]

Hamilton also was on the better "dry tyre in wet conditions". The ultra softs keep their temperature better than the normal softs, so he did have more grip to his disposition.

Hamilton certainly is a good wet weather driver, don't get me wrong. I do think the tyre made the difference and Ferrari would either have to tell their drivers to push, or come in for a different set of tyres.

It's been a long time since I've seen Mercedes make an inspired call. They should have sent their meteorologist up to collect the constructor's trophy.

I'd rather call it the weather playing suitable in their hands. You never can 100% accurately predict how it's going to pan out. In this case you had enough circuit dry that dry tyres were the better tyres, but also enough wet circuit to make life the more difficult the harder the tyre was. It was a very fine line and it could just as well have swung to clear intermediate tyre conditions, and then Hamilton would have lost that advantage.

Mind I am not calling it luck. Mercedes reacted well in these conditions, and Hamilton of course was put in this situation by bad luck in the first place. Also, Ferrari blistered their tyres a lot more, which made the issue even worse.

No, local weather can be predicted with near certainty within the hour and with even greater certainty in shorter time frames; which is why the teams could tell exactly what corners were going to be affected by rain and with what intensity. Therefore, Mercedes strategy call had little to do with the weather playing suitably and more to do with a cold assessment of coming conditions weighted against their drivers abilities. That is how they pulled off a brilliant victory.

[turbof1]

It's been a long time since I've seen Mercedes make an inspired call. They should have sent their meteorologist up to collect the constructor's trophy.

I'd rather call it the weather playing suitable in their hands. You never can 100% accurately predict how it's going to pan out. In this case you had enough circuit dry that dry tyres were the better tyres, but also enough wet circuit to make life the more difficult the harder the tyre was. It was a very fine line and it could just as well have swung to clear intermediate tyre conditions, and then Hamilton would have lost that advantage.

Mind I am not calling it luck. Mercedes reacted well in these conditions, and Hamilton of course was put in this situation by bad luck in the first place. Also, Ferrari blistered their tyres a lot more, which made the issue even worse.

No, local weather can be predicted with near certainty within the hour and with even greater certainty in shorter time frames; which is why the teams could tell exactly what corners were going to be affected by rain and with what intensity.

If that was the case the smaller teams wouldn't have gambled on intermediates and Gasly would certainly not have been put in full wets. So there was a chance at the very least the rain could have been worse to justify a gamble on intermediates. I'm sure weather tech is better than it was a few years ago, but in this case it was a rather fine line.

[Sevach]

I honesty don't see the point of a team telling their driver to "push" under those conditions, what Ferrari should've been worrying is making the right pit call.

weter (is that a word btw? Not my first language )

Some drivers can push under conditions other drivers can't. One of Hamilton's strengths since entering the sport is being a tenacious driver in the wet. What Mercedes did with Hamilton yesterday from a strategy standpoint was attack because they had confidence in his skills. They have historically chosen not to do that, instead trusting the computer.

Wetter is a word BTW. The comparative adjective of wet. Your English just fine.

I agree with that, what i don't agree would be Ferrari getting on the radio and telling Vettel to "push" because Hamilton is coming, those were treacherous conditions and you do the best you can... as Turbo pointed out Hamilton also had more grip for those conditions.

What Ferrari should worry primarily is what they should do to help on their end, pit Vettel for ultras? For inters? Telling him to push against a rival who has a car in better conditions and is inevitably coming (we don't know if they did that actually) serves no purpose.

It's kinda like Alonso going "i don't want to know", many years back.

Also one extra T got it

[GrandAxe]

I'd rather call it the weather playing suitable in their hands. You never can 100% accurately predict how it's going to pan out. In this case you had enough circuit dry that dry tyres were the better tyres, but also enough wet circuit to make life the more difficult the harder the tyre was. It was a very fine line and it could just as well have swung to clear intermediate tyre conditions, and then Hamilton would have lost that advantage.

Mind I am not calling it luck. Mercedes reacted well in these conditions, and Hamilton of course was put in this situation by bad luck in the first place. Also, Ferrari blistered their tyres a lot more, which made the issue even worse.

No, local weather can be predicted with near certainty within the hour and with even greater certainty in shorter time frames; which is why the teams could tell exactly what corners were going to be affected by rain and with what intensity.

If that was the case the smaller teams wouldn't have gambled on intermediates and Gasly would certainly not have been put in full wets. So there was a chance at the very least the rain could have been worse to justify a gamble on intermediates. I'm sure weather tech is better than it was a few years ago, but in this case it was a rather fine line.

I think its that the smaller teams do not have the budget and computational resources of the big three (plus McLaren), so to predict the weather, might have to figuratively stick a hand through the window (alongside a little prayer). That's why we saw the howler of full wets at about the same time that Lewis was getting put on slicks (even though it was raining).

With the bigger teams, they were able to inform their drivers quite accurately about not just where the rain was going to come down, buts what its intensity and duration were going to be as well.

[Sevach]

If that was the case the smaller teams wouldn't have gambled on intermediates and Gasly would certainly not have been put in full wets. So there was a chance at the very least the rain could have been worse to justify a gamble on intermediates. I'm sure weather tech is better than it was a few years ago, but in this case it was a rather fine line.

Mclaren was telling Alonso the rain would come in turns 1-2 while Mercedes was saying turn 6 (Mercedes won that too).

At the time Vettel crashed lap times had slowed to the 1:30s vs the 3s slower lap times of the previous laps, i believe it was finally inters time, but everyone who took inters early had already given up on them...

The SC helped teams make a decision, the track was ready for inters, but the prediction was no more rain, which was the tough part.

[f1ssk]

Hi,
I am new here...
One thing I am annoyed about is Merc asking Bottas to back off on the Safety car restart. Bottas completed the overtake and had to give back the position! its just sad to see in the pinnacle of motor sports.
Its annoying because the win for Hamilton from 14th is great and all but there is a caveat, team orders. Not one broadcaster talked about it, no one in the forums and Hamilton himself, feeling proud of the win.

Didnt anyone else have an issue with that? and btw I am a hamilton fan... love to see him race and win but not like that.. :/

[Sierra117]

Hi,
I am new here...
One thing I am annoyed about is Merc asking Bottas to back off on the Safety car restart. Bottas completed the overtake and had to give back the position! its just sad to see in the pinnacle of motor sports.
Its annoying because the win for Hamilton from 14th is great and all but there is a caveat, team orders. Not one broadcaster talked about it, no one in the forums and Hamilton himself, feeling proud of the win.

Didnt anyone else have an issue with that? and btw I am a hamilton fan... love to see him race and win but not like that.. :/

I didn't see him complete the overtake. He got alongside Ham, but then couldn't make it stick. The reason for it is because they already had a crazy miraculous race where Ham goes from P14 to P1. With teammates fighting, in THOSE CONDITIONS, you have a high chance of a crash. What happens then? You lose both positions. A controlled 1-2 at that stage of the race is a logical thing to do. A crash means you have a potentially large cost of repair, possible penalties if some critical component is damaged and all-round acute depression over doing something so stupid when a 1-2 is in the bag.

Put yourself in that position, with numbers going through your head, like the aforementioned mechanical costs and then others like sponsorships. What's the point of having 2 minutes of "excitement", in exchange for something that can go extremely wrong? What if a crash means they lose the championship entirely? This race result could be the turning point of the season in favour of Merc.

Bottas had no issues with it because he knows this. Of course as a racer he would like to have continued, just like anybody else, although even he knows that a 1-2 is better than a crash. He himself has mentioned multiple times in post-race interviews that he had already lost the chance of a win with the timing of the safety car.

F1 is a team sport. You try to do well for yourself as much as possible but the team comes first. If you go solo and ignore the team's interests, you're only alienating yourself because it is the team that supports you.

Also ... all the broadcasters talked about it. Like literally before the radio was broadcast, Brundle began talking about it

[hemichromis]

I feel that if Lewis was 6 seconds ahead of Bottas he would have received a 5 second penalty.

Bottas had to pit in place of Hamilton as they wanted to split strategy.
Should have been an easy win for Bottas

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Hi,
I am new here...
One thing I am annoyed about is Merc asking Bottas to back off on the Safety car restart. Bottas completed the overtake and had to give back the position! its just sad to see in the pinnacle of motor sports.
Its annoying because the win for Hamilton from 14th is great and all but there is a caveat, team orders. Not one broadcaster talked about it, no one in the forums and Hamilton himself, feeling proud of the win.

Didnt anyone else have an issue with that? and btw I am a hamilton fan... love to see him race and win but not like that.. :/

A few things.
First of, Bottas didn't complete the pass. Couple of times when he came alongside, he was on the outside line and Hamilton was holding on to inside line, which he usually does and now almost everyone does. You can't pass a guy who is on the inside line.

Hamilton isn't generally good in getting heat into tyres at the SC restarts, which allows chasing driver to come closer, but he manages to save his position with some skillful driving.

On various occasions, when he was on inferior tyres at the SC restart, he has managed to save his position. Bahrain 2014 and Spa 2017 swings to mind immediately. In Spa last year, first lap after SC was the only opportunity that was available for Vettel and after that, Lewis was gone. Lewis was on Softs, whereas Vettel was on UltraSofts.

So, even without the team orders, Lewis would have saved his place, because he has done it in the past. The track was wet in parts and in such conditions, Lewis generally prevails. Bottas isn't a hard overtaker either. So it would be long shot to assume that Bottas would have overtaken him.

Here are some snaps of their duel. Everytime, Lewis held on to the inside line.

[turbof1]

Hi,
I am new here...
One thing I am annoyed about is Merc asking Bottas to back off on the Safety car restart. Bottas completed the overtake and had to give back the position! its just sad to see in the pinnacle of motor sports.
Its annoying because the win for Hamilton from 14th is great and all but there is a caveat, team orders. Not one broadcaster talked about it, no one in the forums and Hamilton himself, feeling proud of the win.

Didnt anyone else have an issue with that? and btw I am a hamilton fan... love to see him race and win but not like that.. :/

He didn't complete the overtake:

If I was a team manager, I would have probably made the same call. Even though as race fan my heart cried at the order to hold station.

[Big Tea]

Yip, Hamilton and Bottas taking each other out then would be handing Ferrari over 50 points at a time their lead driver did not score.
(43 lost dnf +10 more for Kimi)