2018 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 20-22

[Phil]

Mercedes said that if the roles had been reversed, they would have made the same call. I agree with that and believe them.

[Mamba]

I understand why Mercedes made the call, but then they should please stop saying how team orders at Ferrari would be "brutal" and how their drivers are free to race. Act, don't talk. They play the media game but most certainly don't act like it yet team orders at Ferrari is madness. If anything Merc's Hamilton favourtism is higher and certainly more clear than Ferrari's Vettel favourtism.

And where was Baku Hamilton saying he does not celebrate wins he does not deserve? Had he won fair and square he could celebrate like he did. When your teammate is called off after a few corners that is not a fair win.

MAMBA

[Phil]

I think you exaggerating a bit here. Hamilton had every right to celebrate the way he did, as he won the race and at no point, was Bottas ahead. I am rather doubtful Bottas would have gotten past anyway - that tire advantage lastet about a lap and then there was no stopping Hamilton anyway. Bottas had his chance and the call to "hold position" came after. The point in intervening was that the racing line was dry and everything besides it wasn't - thus having your two drivers battle in position 1 & 2 on a rather unpredictable track on slicks is only risking one or both going off and losing the team result. Therefore, I am fully confident had the roles been reversed, Hamilton equally would have been told to stand down.

Mercedes has always been rather consistent in their team interference. They usually intervene if a driver is holding up their other driver, if they are on different strategies or if there is a clear motivation in doing so (i.e. a better team result on the table). They have not to the best of my knowledge ever intervened to favor one driver over the other or to influence the outcome of their own championship. It always has been done rather transparently and I am in no doubt that Bottas has every bit of support in the team and is allowed to fight and win. If he does so, all depends on the man himself.

[santos]

"I think for the sake of the sport and the fans and the drivers, at that stage in the season, the beginning of July, switching drivers is quite a brutal call." - Toto a few weeks ago
"Valtteri, it's James, please hold position. I'm sorry," - James Vowles

But then Toto explains why they did that, and the world says "Ok Toto, our dear god of F1".

At Ferrari, a driver is asked to not hold back the teammate. The world gets angry, and say that they are destroying the sport…

I'm ok with team orders. They should be applied whenever a team thinks it will get a better result.

[Wynters]

If anything Merc's Hamilton favourtism is higher and certainly more clear than Ferrari's Vettel favourtism.

Remind us, Bottas has won races with Mercedes...how many races has Raikonnen been allowed to win? How many times has he let Vettel through, even when he was in a better position (such as at this GP when there was rain forecast meaning they all looked like they would have to make one more pitstop and he had track position)? How many times has Vettel let him back through?

All the teams use team orders, there is no 'holier than thou' on this issue. To pretend otherwise is madness.

[seventhsin]

No, local weather can be predicted with near certainty within the hour and with even greater certainty in shorter time frames; which is why the teams could tell exactly what corners were going to be affected by rain and with what intensity.

If that was the case the smaller teams wouldn't have gambled on intermediates and Gasly would certainly not have been put in full wets. So there was a chance at the very least the rain could have been worse to justify a gamble on intermediates. I'm sure weather tech is better than it was a few years ago, but in this case it was a rather fine line.

I think its that the smaller teams do not have the budget and computational resources of the big three (plus McLaren), so to predict the weather, might have to figuratively stick a hand through the window (alongside a little prayer). That's why we saw the howler of full wets at about the same time that Lewis was getting put on slicks (even though it was raining).

With the bigger teams, they were able to inform their drivers quite accurately about not just where the rain was going to come down, buts what its intensity and duration were going to be as well.

Even in Australia with our shockingly slow and expensive internet connections we have access to the live radar data of the Bureau of Meteorology.

Each ring of this radar map is 15km, I live in South Australia and there is a racetrack in the Mallala region of this map.
I have raced Superbikes there for nearly 15 years, we know which features of the track face North and using visual wind and cloud direction coupled with the data from this Government website, it's very easy to predict rainfall for the next 10 to 40 minutes.
In fact I even use the 64km radar loop below to find gaps in the rain to walk the dog.

I'd highly doubt that F1 teams have their own weather crew at every circuit, and rather that they'd all be tuned into the same data as each other. Wild tyre choices such as STR in this race likely come from having nothing or little to lose... Sometimes those gambles pay off though, as heavy rain can sometimes develop quickly and unexpectedly especially over hilly terrain.

Radar data loop shown in 10 minute intervals.
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR644.l ... c38751.jpg[/IMG]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[giantfan10]

Don't feed the trolls man. If we don't respond they will go away

Agreed. Just couldn't hold back on that one.

It's funny, you'd think that with Ferrari's pedigree in the sport, Ferrari fans would respond to success by acting like they've been there before. Guess it's been a long 4 years!

Naa its probably a reaction to 4 years of hearing how Mercedes is the best at everything and that usual nonsense.....
Add to that the Sky networks obvious bias.
Ominous is another irritant lol.
In all seriousness its the middle of the season and in 2 or 3 races the pecking order could be flipped upside down.....there is nothing to celebrate yet.
It is funnt though reading about Mer edes whining about Ferrari having a half a second advantage on the straights....
You have to be able to take it after dishing it out for 3+ years

just reposting my before race take

[RZS10]

ahahahahahaha

this:


followed by the usual "i'm fan of X but i don't like that X won in such a manner"

quality.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

https://motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes ... f-1062491/

Is Toto right, when he said they were losing 5 tenths on the straights to Ferrari?

I have taken some screenshots from the Vettel-Bottas pole lap comparison video.

This is at Start.


This is Turn 1. Note that the LIVE GAP graphic is showing that Ferrari is slightly behind, whereas they are on par.


This is just before Turn 2. Note that Bottas is ahead, but the LIVE GAP graphic shows as Merc is trailing.


This is Turn 2 apex. Now both cars are on par, but the LIVE GAP graphic shows as Merc is trailing.


This is just before Turn 3 apex. Look at the grass in front of the left front wheel. Merc is slightly ahead here. But still the LIVE GAP graphic shows as Merc is trailing.


This is just after Turn 3. Merc is still ahead. Look at the white line under the wheel. But still the LIVE GAP graphic shows as Merc is trailing.


This is at the DRS start. Here something incredible happened! Suddenly, that Ferrari leapt in front by a good margin! Ferrari is already on the DRS start line, whereas Merc is quite behind. That was the gap maintained until the end of the straight.


This is just before breaking for Turn 6 at the end of the straight (50 Mtr mark). The gap is essentially what came out after the Turn 3.


Is that a 5 tenths gap? Well, at least I don't think so, unless the team's telemetry and GPS tells them it is.
What I was unable to understand, was that sudden burst out of Turn 3 that Vettel got. Because there is no speedometer graphic, I couldn't see what speed Vettel carried from Turn 2 to Turn 3 and exit out of Turn 3. OR is it a glitch in Mercedes PU software that it didn't provide the same kick as Ferrari did. For the rest of the straight, the performance remained the same.

After Turn 6, Vettel got a good traction out of the corner and brought out some more gap until Turn 12 and by Turn 13, Bottas started reeling in. My conclusion is, that very specific short burst after the exit of Turn 3 and a good exit out of Turn 6, was what the difference in the pole time.

That LIVE GAP graphic sucks!

[Phil]

"I think for the sake of the sport and the fans and the drivers, at that stage in the season, the beginning of July, switching drivers is quite a brutal call." - Toto a few weeks ago
"Valtteri, it's James, please hold position. I'm sorry," - James Vowles

But then Toto explains why they did that, and the world says "Ok Toto, our dear god of F1".

Actually, I think there's a big difference in switching position and holding position. Switching position is artificial altering of the result. The latter could be used if both drivers are potentially damaging their own and the teams chances, i.e. if both have to save tires but as a result of engaging in on-track battle are making themselves vulnerable. The latter was also often discussed in relation to Hamilton and Rosberg from 2014 to 2016.

There are team-orders and there are team-orders. On one hand of the spectrum, you have a team concerned about their team-result, on the other spectrum, you have blatant favoritism and disregard for the driver who is a long way up the road and is then told to slow down and let the other pass (Barricello / Schumacher in Austria 2006).

[Big Tea]

To be fair, saying it is brutal is not saying he would not do it. He may think its brutal, but still in the best interests of the team.

[LM10]

If anything Merc's Hamilton favourtism is higher and certainly more clear than Ferrari's Vettel favourtism.

Remind us, Bottas has won races with Mercedes...how many races has Raikonnen been allowed to win? How many times has he let Vettel through, even when he was in a better position (such as at this GP when there was rain forecast meaning they all looked like they would have to make one more pitstop and he had track position)? How many times has Vettel let him back through?

All the teams use team orders, there is no 'holier than thou' on this issue. To pretend otherwise is madness.

When was Kimi in such a race winning position as Bottas has been a few times this season (at least Baku)? And he would have won at least once, if it was not for unlucky incidents.

Kimi unfortunately mostly let it slip through his hands when it matters most. In Hockenheim he was leading, but I doubt that Vettel would have pitted a second time. The top teams knew that rain was about to come for just a few minutes. That’s why Hamilton got slicks as well.
So Kimi and Vettel were on different strategies and Ferrari’s call to let Vettel through was way too late.

[Mamba]

If anything Merc's Hamilton favourtism is higher and certainly more clear than Ferrari's Vettel favourtism.

Remind us, Bottas has won races with Mercedes...how many races has Raikonnen been allowed to win? How many times has he let Vettel through, even when he was in a better position (such as at this GP when there was rain forecast meaning they all looked like they would have to make one more pitstop and he had track position)? How many times has Vettel let him back through?

All the teams use team orders, there is no 'holier than thou' on this issue. To pretend otherwise is madness.

You are indeed correct. All teams do use it, yet Mercedes claim their guys are free to race? Hungary 2017 is the only time they issued an order in favour of Bottas. Rest is all Hamilton. You yourself stated Bottas is a race winner for them and deserves to be treated better as an equal. That is why I find it very hard to believe had positions been reversed the same call would be made.

Kimi is just there bagging millions and playing second fiddle. He has had good races but it seems Vettel naturally has the better of him at most times. It is clear why Ferrari favour him more.

MAMBA

[flexcon]

https://motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes ... f-1062491/

Is Toto right, when he said they were losing 5 tenths on the straights to Ferrari?


That LIVE GAP graphic sucks![/size][/b]

not sure on what thread I read this - Maybe the Ferrari power thread.

the claim or the theory is the Ferrari engine pulls more at speeds between 150kph and 250kph.
Looking at on board, looks like out of Turn 3 thats about right. So basically the top speed is unaffected but the ferrari engine just keeps pulling like a dog in 5th and 6th - much more so than Mercedes.

[ismail1991]

If anything Merc's Hamilton favourtism is higher and certainly more clear than Ferrari's Vettel favourtism.

Remind us, Bottas has won races with Mercedes...how many races has Raikonnen been allowed to win? How many times has he let Vettel through, even when he was in a better position (such as at this GP when there was rain forecast meaning they all looked like they would have to make one more pitstop and he had track position)? How many times has Vettel let him back through?

All the teams use team orders, there is no 'holier than thou' on this issue. To pretend otherwise is madness.

When was Kimi in such a race winning position as Bottas has been a few times this season (at least Baku)? And he would have won at least once, if it was not for unlucky incidents.

Kimi unfortunately mostly let it slip through his hands when it matters most. In Hockenheim he was leading, but I doubt that Vettel would have pitted a second time. The top teams knew that rain was about to come for just a few minutes. That’s why Hamilton got slicks as well.
So Kimi and Vettel were on different strategies and Ferrari’s call to let Vettel through was way too late.

MONACO last year is a perfect example. As everybody knows who starts first finishes first in MONACO