Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I've always said that Ferrari/Mahle would eventually dominate, they've done the hard work on really studying TJI.
Mercedes-HPE have learned empirically with their earlier implementation with less knowledge existing at the time, eventually that deeper knowledge Mahle contributed to Ferrari through research in Oz, UK and US and Elisa Toulson and others at Michigan State University was going to pay dividends. We're now seeing the fruit of doing the hard work and that's favouring Ferrari now. I guessed it would be up to a 6% improvement and that is about right.

Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 14:08
MR S S
you are the person who can't see Honda's telemetry showing K generation exiting bends
you are the person who had posted seemingly a thousand times that the rules say the K recovers only kinetic energy
and remember PU overrun push is allowed to be zero - the K can be continuously driven 'off-throttle' at 120 kW by fuel burn


anyway, regarding the suggested ES>K>H energy transfer directly through the K CU capacitor to the H CU capacitor ....
how can this comply with the rules demand for transfer to be via the MGU-H ? - as it has not gone through the MGU-H
It's called confirmation bias, someone only looking for things that confirm their belief and ignoring everything that contradicts it. You have to be aware of how the human brain thinks to truely be aware of it, there's a book called
"Thinking Fast and Slow" by Daniel someone, that goes into this. It's a must read for engineers, software developers etc.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tzk wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 20:19
saviour stivala wrote: the point was were do you store it when harvested back and till you send it out (deploy it out on the next straight).
As pointed out several times, you just harvest and deploy from/to the ERS but to circumvent the 4mj Limit, you do it via for example via the mgu-h.

This has nothing to do with your proposed "free load mode". Which is basically motoring the turbo via the mgu-h with open wastegate(s).
but the point was and still is, were do you store the harvested 4MJ so as you will be able to deploy it on the next straight? that was what I was arguing with the other gentleman, and why is it that the point i raised is being skipped? did we get to the point of opposing someone just for the sake of opposing? i hope not.

GrandAxe
GrandAxe
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Joined: 01 Aug 2013, 17:06

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Muniix wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 20:01
GrandAxe wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 19:33
Muniix wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 18:36

It DOES take huge amounts of compute to do ML/DL the phones you refer to have special TPU tensor processing units, the Huawei Mate 10 Pro, uses their own Kirin 970 that uses the GPU graphics processing units and the dedicated TPU cores for AI workloads. This Kirin 970 SoC is the same one I use for powertrain control atm, to do AI and physics compute loads.

The standard hardware the Formula One teams are forced to use have less than 1% of the compute of average mobile phones.

Ferrari may be putting in some intelligence into the TJI in engine, in that it's controlling it's own spark timing based on cylinder and pre-chamber MEMS pressure sensors, maybe ion sensing, and using some models with thermodynamics and detecting the reaction rate of radicals as they can be sensed this way with TJI and placing a 10mm spark plug just for ION sensing in main chamber, Ferrari could be a little bit more elegant in implementation.
1% the compute average of mobiles phones is pretty handy where the the dataset being processed is small and has few dimensions (unlike, say millions of dimensions in a jpeg or video) as will be the case with turning switches on or off based on a narrow set of parameters in an F1 car.

Machine learning algorithms are quite varied - from those that basically require more storage space and RAM than computational power and can run on bog standard devices (e.g. pos taggers); to systems that require super computers (e.g. weather forecasting and gene sequencing). Not everything requires GPU and other specialist hardware with frightening names.
Your reading sensor data, and processing it, it's not on/off single bit digital data, it's potentially more complex than recognising 'cats'.
Its surely not. Every sensor is a single dimension only.

A system as the one we are discussing might only want to know when the car is standing still, cornering, accelerating beyond a threshold, braking from above a threshold speed, one or two safety parameters; altogether only a handful of dimensions. Turning switches on or of in an F1 car should be pretty straightforward with the main challenges being integrating the machine learning system with the design/function of the car.

Recognising cats on the other hand, requires juggling millions of dimensions.

Talking about turning switches on or of in an F1 car to change functionality ... It could be anything from simple off/on switch actions, to loading custom software on the go or taking circuits offline to reprogramme them. The AI software could also be hidden like a virus to pop up when required. All these techniques can both change functionality of an engine and mask the method of change without requiring massive computational power.

Bandini
Bandini
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Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 20:51

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hallo, i‘m new here.
would it be possible that ferrari is using the principle of an permanent-magnetmotor on the mguh?
would it be legal?


here a link:

https://www.powerelectronics.com/altern ... net-motors

PhillipM
PhillipM
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Joined: 16 May 2011, 15:18
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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And if you're going to limit it to that simple a scope it'll do nothing a basic engine map wouldn't already do.

GrandAxe
GrandAxe
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Joined: 01 Aug 2013, 17:06

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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But an engine map cannot change the function of a circuit to be different things when needed, in a way that it looks every bit normal to an outsider.

This AI aspect has only arisen, because a software upgrade only is going to bring a huge power boost to two of Ferrari's customers.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Re the Honda telemetry showing “K” generating/harvesting when exiting bends, which means it was doing so while under acceleration/under power. It is not like that’s something I was going to miss, I have seen it way before I came on here. Never said it wasn’t being done, because I know that some teams had to resort to doing it (burn fuel to generate/harvest). In fact yesterday during FP1 the same method of harvesting/generating popped up in the open air waves for all to hear. There was no need to study/read telemetry.
Yes I was the one saying “K” recovers/generate/harvest kinetic energy under braking/when braking. Because “MGU-K: where the “K” stands for kinetic” converts kinetic energy generated under braking into electricity, rather than it escaping as heat.

Tzk
Tzk
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Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 12:49

Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Correct. And you are allowed to send this energy from mgu-k to mgu-h to es. And this path is actually unlimited.

This also answers your question "where" the harvested 4mj are stored. Same applies for the deployment (es -> H -> K). Also unlimited.


Last edited by Tzk on 28 Jul 2018, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 13:23

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bandini wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 21:05
Hallo, i‘m new here.
would it be possible that ferrari is using the principle of an permanent-magnetmotor on the mguh?
would it be legal?


here a link:

https://www.powerelectronics.com/altern ... net-motors
Legal? yes, possible? no.

This sentence from the article: "The method described here illustrates how permanent magnets alone can be used to produce continuous motion and provide a surplus of mechanical energy that can be used for other purposes such as driving an electric generator." should raise some suspicion that the whole thing is BS, because what they discribe is a perpetual motion machine.
This permanent magnet motor was already stated in the 50's by a german engineer and it was BS back then and it is still BS.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tzk wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 22:12
Correct. And you are allowed to send this energy from mgu-k to mgu-h to ers. And this path is actually unlimited.

This also answers your question "where" the harvested 4mj are stored. Same applies for the deployment (ers -> H -> K). Also unlimited.
"answered my question?" as far as I know "ERS" stands foe energy recovery system. hope you dont mind asking you again, and were is it stored so that on the next staight it can be deployed again?

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subcritical71
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Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 20:04
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tzk wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 22:12
Correct. And you are allowed to send this energy from mgu-k to mgu-h to ers. And this path is actually unlimited.

This also answers your question "where" the harvested 4mj are stored. Same applies for the deployment (ers -> H -> K). Also unlimited.
Are you meaning ERS or ES? The battery is the Energy Store, the ERS would be the entire Energy Recovery System (ES, K, and H). Just want to prevent confusion in case the conversation grows.

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subcritical71
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Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 20:04
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Blaze1 wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 01:42
subcritical71 wrote:
26 Jul 2018, 00:43
Blaze1 wrote:
26 Jul 2018, 00:08
I've been considering the Honda extra harvest mode and the theory proposed by Craigy? about using the compressor and or turbine as a flywheel.

Rather that using the pressure charging system as the flywheel, why not simply have an integrated flywheel on a separate spool (like a multi-stage jet engine), that can be clutched to the pressure charging system and or the MGU-H. Under part throttle conditions in GENSET mode, the MGU-K (via crankshaft power) could be used to spin-up the flywheel and exceed the 4Mj ES limit, as it is a separate mechanical ES (not 'cell' based) and thus not subject to those energy or packaging limitations.
Unfortunately it isn’t allowed by the rules.

5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to
propel the car, is not permitted.
I forgot to add that the flywheel doesn't recover energy it stores it, so article 5.2.1 shouldn't be applicable.
Maybe its legal. :-k I don't know, my interpretation is that it wouldn't be as a standalone unit. Meaning away from the existing MGU-H or turbo. I would say that in order to build up energy in the flywheel it would need to be recovered from somewhere else. I could be wrong, if you ask my wife I usually am! :lol:

Tzk
Tzk
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Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 12:49

Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Are you meaning ERS or ES? The battery is the Energy Store, the ERS would be the entire Energy Recovery System (ES, K, and H). Just want to prevent confusion in case the conversation grows.
Sorry for that. I was refering to the energy store (es), not ers. I‘ve edited my posts above for clarification.

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bandini wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 21:05
Hallo, i‘m new here.
would it be possible that ferrari is using the principle of an permanent-magnetmotor on the mguh?
would it be legal?


here a link:

https://www.powerelectronics.com/altern ... net-motors
Like a Perendev motor? Might be interesting, but doubtful.

Im more thinking along the lines of wireless power transfer that can't be monitored by using built in rectennas.

I think i remember reading during the V8 days, that the engines produced an EMF that interfered with the video feed... It would be interesting to find that a team found a way to tap that energy, and are feeding it directly into the MGU-K... :lol: :lol: