Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[sosic2121]

You wouldn't build a seperate flywheel ffs

You'd just make your turbine or MGU-H heavier.

I have to say I predicted this 2 years ago

[subcritical71]

So now we have something else added to the “Honda harvests even under power” of which I said it was legal/permitted, as evidenced and done in Hungary by Vandoorne. What was added now is that Honda harvests 3MJ through the MGU-K and this on black on white. How Honda can or is allowed to harvest 1MJ more than is permitted by the MGU-K and gets it post the FIA flow measuring sensor is beyond me. I am saying this because when I look at the FIA energy flow chart the charts show flow from engine to MGU-K and from MGU-K to engine being stated as limited, and as I also understand it, it is because this flow is limited that a flow measuring sensor is mandated at the MGU-K.
Somebody mentioned “clipping”. Clipping happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). Those that their turbo/MGU-H combination allows the MGU-H to click-in/comes on-line, their MGU-H will be rapidly re-charging the ES, those that their turbo/MGU-H combination does not allow this, they will normally have to revert to harvesting by the MGU-K under power/by burning fuel,

This could be the extra harvest mode. There are two things;
1) energy is sent from the K to the H and then on to the ES. The energy from K to H is unlimited as is the pathway from H to ES (K still limited to +/-120w power).
2) Honda have shown they are able to switch the H from generating to supercharging mode at a rate of 20 to 40 Hz (switches every 25 to 50 msec). This is the method of temporarily storing energy (inertia, electronics) so that the teams can bypass the ES <> K limits.

henry has some good posts on how the energy flows could be calculated based off of time delays for when the energy is sent to when it arrives at battery. From the data I've seen on a similar energy sensor used in FE, the sampling rate can be as high as 1000 Hz (1 msec), so fast enough by a wide margin for the known Honda switching rate.

"So that the teams can bypass the ES<>K limit" It is hard for me to believe that any of the four manufacturers (and not teams) will try or be tempted to try to bypass any limit imposed by the regulations.

Who said anything about going outside of the regulations? I certainly did not. And why would teams not try to bypass something when there is an allowable way to do it (in this case the K <> H <> ES path)? Seems to me that would just be a bit naive on their part.

[subcritical71]

Max energy released per lap (MGU-K) 4MJ.
Power output (HP) (MGU-K) 160HP for 33.33 seconds per lap.

Please refrain from posting incorrect or misleading information. This will only confuse others that come to this forum and don’t realize the source.

[ringo]

I might be wrong but I can only tell that of what I see.(rules/regulations/ energy flow chart).
Energy store, ES where all energy recovered by K and H is stored.
Max output per lap (MGU-K) 120KW.
Max energy released per lap (MGU-K) 4MJ.
Power output (HP) (MGU-K) 160HP for 33.33 seconds per lap.

I believe Ferrari's experience with their hybrid FXX cars has given them the advantage. They aren't circumventing any rules but simply moving in-between the rules.

It is known that they have two batteries. I have not looked at the regulations in detail, but this is where they could be winning...
The advantages may be more related to time dependent reasons for running two batteries. There may be some advantage in being able to cool one battery while the other is being deployed or charged. Also less switching and management of energy flows by the control electronics.

Also one energy store can be providing unlimited energy to the MGUH and 2 MJ to the K, while at the same time the other is providing 2 MJ to the K as well. That's the maximum of 4MJ, only that there is possibly less management required by the Control electronics, and less duty on the batter only supplying 2MJ.
Just my thoughts, i could be wrong here.
This kind of situation then allows Ferrari to be less limited by mechanical factors such as cooling, allowing them to deploy for longer over a lap, and more importantly, with two batteries you can double the juice going to the MGUH if there are physical limitation of one battery.
When you double the juice going to the MGUH, you have very high boost pressures off idle, providing higher power from the ICE over the rev range.

[wuzak]

When you double the juice going to the MGUH, you have very high boost pressures off idle, providing higher power from the ICE over the rev range.

That is somewhat restricted by the fuel flow regulations.

[wuzak]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

The K to engine and engine to K are only limited in kW. There is no limit in MJ at that point of the flow chart. The MJ limits are for K to ES and ES to K.

I might be wrong but I can only tell that of what I see.(rules/regulations/ energy flow chart).
Energy store, ES where all energy recovered by K and H is stored.
Max output per lap (MGU-K) 120KW.
Max energy released per lap (MGU-K) 4MJ.
Power output (HP) (MGU-K) 160HP for 33.33 seconds per lap.

You must have missed the big curved line going from the MGUH to the MGUK, via the control electronics, with the word "unlimited" in the middle.

[ringo]

When you double the juice going to the MGUH, you have very high boost pressures off idle, providing higher power from the ICE over the rev range.

That is somewhat restricted by the fuel flow regulations.

Yes for the fuel, but it doesn't mean that maximum boost is generated, or the extreme a:f ratios we have come to know from TJI is being exploited at the lower rpms. If there is some data or graphs available we can see if the max fuel flow is being used at the lower range, and also if the lean a:f is being maximized as well.

Ferrari is more powerful than mercedes now because their ICE is more power full most of the time, and that is not limited to track time, but possibly rev time, ie engine speeds.

[sosic2121]

"Other systems treat their battery as one. Ferrari, it's one battery, but they treat it as two. That's the fundamental difference, I don't think it's a secret I'm giving away there."

I am still to hear convincing explanation about this. Heat management, separate K&H battery... I don't think so.

The only difference is how system treats this ONE battery.
Maybe they can rearrange connections between cells in order to manipulate voltage/current output in order to increase efficiency of the system(mainly CE) depending on H&K needs.
(for example in turbo compound mode ES outputs 60kw, and in e-charger mode it outputs 180kw)

[sosic2121]

"Other systems treat their battery as one. Ferrari, it's one battery, but they treat it as two. That's the fundamental difference, I don't think it's a secret I'm giving away there."

I am still to hear convincing explanation about this. Heat management, separate K&H battery... I don't think so.

The only difference is how system treats this ONE battery.
Maybe they can rearrange connections between cells in order to manipulate voltage/current output in order to increase efficiency of the system(mainly CE) depending on H&K needs.
(for example in turbo compound mode ES outputs 60kw, and in e-charger mode it outputs 180kw)

I have another idea, one that makes more sense.
Couple assumptions:
-batteries are always kept between 40% and 70%(where they are most efficient), and that implies voltage per cell is 3.6-3.7V
-charging voltage per cell is 4.2V(maybe more)
-maximum allowed voltage is 800V DC?
(I was wrong. It's peek 1000V, but idea is the same)
Since cable losses rise with square current, it would be beneficial it increase charging voltage to maximum 800V.
But that would mean that battery voltage is only cca. 700V.
That means current is 13.5% higher, and cable losses are 28% higher then they would be with maximum allowed 800V battery.
So if Ferrari could rearrange connections between the battery cells in order to manipulate battery voltage, they could have thinner and lighter cables, more energy and less heat.

[saviour stivala]

"Other systems treat their battery as one. Ferrari, it's one battery, but they treat it as two. That's the fundamental difference, I don't think it's a secret I'm giving away there."

I am still to hear convincing explanation about this. Heat management, separate K&H battery... I don't think so.

The only difference is how system treats this ONE battery.
Maybe they can rearrange connections between cells in order to manipulate voltage/current output in order to increase efficiency of the system(mainly CE) depending on H&K needs.
(for example in turbo compound mode ES outputs 60kw, and in e-charger mode it outputs 180kw)

I have another idea, one that makes more sense.
Couple assumptions:
-batteries are always kept between 40% and 70%(where they are most efficient), and that implies voltage per cell is 3.6-3.7V
-charging voltage per cell is 4.2V(maybe more)
-maximum allowed voltage is 800V DC?
(can someone confirm this)
Since cable losses rise with square current, it would be beneficial it increase charging voltage to maximum 800V.
But that would mean that battery voltage is only cca. 700V.
That means current is 13.5% higher, and cable losses are 28% higher then they would be with maximum allowed 800V battery.
So if Ferrari could rearrange connections between the battery cells in order to manipulate battery voltage, they could have thinner and lighter cables, more energy and less heat.

Technical regulations 2017 5.12.5 the maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000v.

[subcritical71]

"Other systems treat their battery as one. Ferrari, it's one battery, but they treat it as two. That's the fundamental difference, I don't think it's a secret I'm giving away there."

I am still to hear convincing explanation about this. Heat management, separate K&H battery... I don't think so.

The only difference is how system treats this ONE battery.
Maybe they can rearrange connections between cells in order to manipulate voltage/current output in order to increase efficiency of the system(mainly CE) depending on H&K needs.
(for example in turbo compound mode ES outputs 60kw, and in e-charger mode it outputs 180kw)

I have another idea, one that makes more sense.
Couple assumptions:
-batteries are always kept between 40% and 70%(where they are most efficient), and that implies voltage per cell is 3.6-3.7V
-charging voltage per cell is 4.2V(maybe more)
-maximum allowed voltage is 800V DC?
(can someone confirm this)
Since cable losses rise with square current, it would be beneficial it increase charging voltage to maximum 800V.
But that would mean that battery voltage is only cca. 700V.
That means current is 13.5% higher, and cable losses are 28% higher then they would be with maximum allowed 800V battery.
So if Ferrari could rearrange connections between the battery cells in order to manipulate battery voltage, they could have thinner and lighter cables, more energy and less heat.

Interesting concepts. Here's the regulation on voltage;

5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.

[sosic2121]

5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.

Thank you both (subcritical71 and saviour stivala) for your input!

[subcritical71]

5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.

Thank you both (subcritical71 and saviour stivala) for your input!

Sorry about the double post. SS post wasn’t there when I posted and they appeared out of no where, but his time stamp is hours before....

[sosic2121]

5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.

Thank you both (subcritical71 and saviour stivala) for your input!

Sorry about the double post. SS post wasn’t there when I posted and they appeared out of no where, but his time stamp is hours before....

Thank you for pointing out that info I had was wrong!
Have you(or anybody else) found any holes in my theory?

[Tommy Cookers]

well since you ask .....

the designers have free choice of cable c.s.area
so the cable losses will be whatever the designers regard as acceptable - not directly driven by current

there's other 2 battery theories around (Red Rock Mutley's)