German GP 2008

[PNSD]

Average lap times over a stint would be a good measure.

[WhiteBlue]

BMW are still playing a very dumb game on Saturday morning. They always run low lap numbers and only on heavey fuel loads. They should routinely let Heidfeld do 10-15 additional laps on low fuel. He is usually 2 tenth slower than Kubica unless he can familiarise himself with the conditions and hone himself to the pace. with a bit of training that shouldn't be so drastic as it was today. again Nick missed out on Kubica in Q2 by two tenth and in the end that meant a difference of five places. when will they learn. or are they hell bent to get rid of Nick?

You are way off WhiteBlue. Nick did 24 laps Saturday. More than both Ferraris, both Macs, both Renaults, more than Robert. He just had a very rare crash in Q2. (How often does he even have off track excursions even on Fridays?) He would have easily made it into Q3 except for that. And Nick is only 7 points behind Robert.

If you really want to study something, study being supportive of your drivers. BMW has stuck with Nick and helped him deal with a technical issue. The tyre warming issue (which today struck Robert) is something quantifiable on the telemetry. Nick is confident that he is on top of it now and the results have shown since the disaster in France. Nick had the fastest lap today on a day when pace-setter Lewis had to push extremely hard prior to his last stop. Renault are supporting Piquet and today's drive (lucky track position) showed that he didn't crack under pressure. Mac are being supportive of Heikki. On the other hand, STR destroyed their drivers last year with no pre-season testing, a late driver announcement days before the season opener, and numerous critical public comments from Berger. Berger needs a lesson in this. Right now Bourdais is dealing with the new car but the team are silent and not supportive like BMW towards Nick. Prior to the new car, Bourdais edged out wunderkind Vettel. Toyota have been supportive of Timo as well. Brawn at Honda is supportive of his drivers knowing that they want to win but suffer with a pig car. Drivers don't need to be coddled but they must be made to feel secure. Team personnel are like this also. That is why Mateschitz vowed to fully fund STR next year even though they know he is looking for a buyer.

Nick will surely be at BMW in 2009. They are more than happy with him. His technical contribution to the car is one reason Robert has good equipment. It is well known that Nick is perhaps the best overtaker in F1. (Ask any insider) Nick has gained more positions during the races than any other driver (quali vs. finish position). His rain driving is stellar and few can drive a heavy car like him. He rarely crashes and is easy on equipment. He knows how to finish and bring the car home. He has had two fastest laps compared to Robert's zero. Shades of Prost. His only problem is that he is almost invisible.

Nick has three non-point finishes this year to Robert's two non-point finishes. In Spain he was forced to refuel during the safety car period costing him 4th if not a podium and it cost him a 10 second penalty. At Monaco Nando crashed his car into Nick damaging its aero. France was his only finish out of the points "on merit". Of Robert's two non-point finishes, in Melbourne he was wrecked by Kaz and we remember him crashing in the wet at Silverstone, a driver error. Nick has had no driver errors so far.

FYI, for those who want to see something very interesting, for those who are slamming Heikki compared to Lewis, for those who are writing Kimi off... see this.

your comment has nothing to do with my posting. There were plenty of teams training with low fuel for Q1 and Q2 and BMW wasn't among those. They usually waste halve the session before they can be bothered to have a driver out. Until they take qualifying serious they deserve to have failures to make it into Q3. Kubica also left it up to the last minute and any small mistake could have screwed him up as well. It is very dumb and I#m not the only person being aware of it. Nick simply is a driver who ius very smooth and taqkes a lot of time to get to his best. You don't get the best out of such a driver if you don't let him train.

[WhiteBlue]

Very entertaining second half of the GP. Quite a shame that it took Glocks accident and a SC to set it up. I hope Timo is ok with his hurt back and will be able to drive again soon.

Alonso was completely rattled today after he battled with Vettel in the pitlane and lost. I would compare his 2008 to Schumachers 2005. Both found themselves from a frontrunning in a midfield car. I'm not so impressed how Alonso is coping with this. People were criticising Michael heavily for making more mistakes in 2005 trying to get more out of a car that couldn't be on top. Alonso is doing even worse and he is so much younger. He is certainly a good driver but he could be beyond his prime already. If he goes to Ferrrari in 2010 and Ferrari sucks it would be the end to his carrier.

I was reminded of Michael in more than one way today. Hamilton twice today drove competitors off the track. Ok there were asphalt run offs but it isn't good practise to do such things and Michael would have been criticised as the devil for something like it. Times have changed and McLaren drivers are praised for the same thing.

Piquet deserves a bit of praise for keeping his nerves, taking a detour over the run off and not letting Hamilton crash him. He used the lucky opportunity and made the points. It will help his carrier.

Massa was a bit unlucky that his brakes were bad when it counted. He also avoided a fight with Hamilton and let him go without a fight. Probably an intelligent move.

McLaren were as bad this time as was Ferrari in Silverstone but they were lucky enough that Hamilton pulled it out of the fire by his no prisoners driving. He drove risky but very well.

BMW was another lucky team to profit from the SC.

Vettel drove beautifully and had a bit of a disadvantage from the SC. He would have finished higher but he took the last point from Trulli and that is what counts in the end.

Williams fall back into anonymity and had Nico not profited from Alonso's mistakes they would not have had any good show in the race. It shows you nead either works resources as McLaren have or a star a designer as Red Bull have with Newey. Perhaps they should retire Pat Head and get a guy like Gascoyne.

[shotzski]

Whenever Lewis makes a mistake, people almost always had to say something because he's not good enough, a stupid bloke. But when he does a fantastic job of keeping it all together, overtaking cars and fighting for position, he's called dirty or a cheat. Tsk tsk tsk! C'mon guys, just enjoy racing. And admit the race was a fantastic one. The race got me out of my seat while eating hehe Peace!

[Ray]

The Man is truly talented =D> .

Yeah he is good. We will truly see his talent when he has a --- car. It's not hard looking good in the fastest car on track.

Come on, just accept it......he is talented. He did beat eyebrow man in his first season and these last two races of his have been spectacular...

I never said he wasn't talented. I actually said he is good. Read my post again. I would never take away anything from Hamiltons talent, nor do I want myself to appear so. I know he's good, that's why I said it.

And I don't wish to start anything, but Hamilton scored the same number of points as Fernando. The only thing that put him up one spot in the championship is one more 2nd place. He did good. But don't forget that Alonso went from a completely comfortable team, whom he won two WDC&WCC to a completely unknown team. It only took him two races before he scored a victory. That feat is amazing. Only bettered by Kimi going to Ferrari. Maybe Fisi as well. Lewis stepped into a top ride and it has flattered him ever since. He hasn't had to deal with a Minardi, unlike Alonso, and the horrible Renault of today. So until he is in a --- car I look at his achievements with a grain of salt. The guy is damn good, I readily admit that. But Fernando started at the bottom and not the top. Until Lewis wins two championships I won't hold him in as high a place as Alonso. Simple fact is he is not a champion and I won't treat him as such. The mere fact that Alonso, not Lewis, almost won the whole thing ina completely different team ranks as high as Lewis almost winning it. That kind of thing has to be terribly hard these days.

Vettel did a good job. Especially when he drove Alonso over the line. I think that was a little uncalled for, and I bet that set off Alonsos temper and caused some of the crappy driving afterwards. Gald to see Vettel get a good finish, Lord knows he deserves one.

The deal with Heikki just proves the bullshit that comes out of "Honest Rons" mouth. Yeah, it was smarter for Heikki to move over, but Jesus Christ he could have made it a little less obvious. I'm not totally against team orders, but they could have done it a little more subtley. Heikki could have a least feigned a mistake or something.

Poor Webber, Can you believe the luck?!

[mx_tifoso]

Personal opinion here, but I really hope for dry conditions throughout the entire GP weekend. Wet races might be entertaining and keep you on the edge of your seat screaming at the tv, but they're not very fulfilling nor very representative of maximum high performance, which is what Formula One is about.

Safety car notwithstanding, this was just the race you hoped for. Ferrari, Mac and BMW all got both cars into the points for the first time this year. Good chart of season at a glance here.

You're right, even with the SC, this was just the race I was hoping for. One would assume that since Hamilton won and Ferrari were off the pace, I would be complaining, but actually I'm not. McLaren have done a fantastic job until now, hopefully they keep it up. As success should never be looked down upon. But hopefully Ferrari and BMW can regain their impressive performance, as they seem to have dropped the ball as of late. Ferrari were supposed to have put extra attention to all the little details between Silverstone and Hockenheim, but it appears that it must have not been enough, or that they focused on the wrong areas.

I wish the best for Glock, that backwards shunt into the angled wall could not have been any fun at all. As the American commentators said, the marshalls should have laid him down on the floor or a stretcher instead of keeping him standing when he was clearly signaling that his back hurt. Does anyone know how fast he was going at the time of the crash? Thanks in advance.

Regarding David Coulthard, once again he managed to intermingle with another car around a corner. Coincidence or not, but his car seems to be pretty tough, sans when the front suspension shattered over a kurb earlier in the season. Glock's Toyota managed to break apart right after the corner without any outside intervention.

I was still yelling at the TV though, my father must think (even more so) that I'm crazy. But mainly when Massa got passed by Hamilton in the latter stages, it looked way to easy and it drove me nuts.

All in all, the top four drivers are only seperated by ten points; Hamilton with 58, Massa 54, Raikkonen 51, and Kubica 48. Ferrari have cracked the 100 point mark at 105, with BMW at 89 and McLaren at 86. And with 8 GP's to go theres plenty of action remaining, in all areas of the grid.

[captainmorgan]

The inside line at turn 4 seemed to be the popular one. Every successful pass involved pushing someone off... what's the rule here? Suppose that the outside car has their front wheel ahead of the midline of the inside car... can he just stay there on track if the inside car pushes him out? If there is a collision would he get blamed?

I also didnt see anyone try to keep the inside line except Vettel when Alonso was trying to pass. Nor did I see anyone on the outside line try to turn early/late apex to get a better exit against someone taking the inside/early apex. I'm not sure if thats the proper terminology, but is there some obvious reason why people werent doing that?

[puttenham]

Where were all the fans today with all the German drivers in the field? The grandstands were pretty empty but the hill sides appeared full.

What prices were charged for admission to the grandstand seats?

Maybe Silverstone should bid for the German Grand Prix now that they are losing the British GP.

[axle]

Very entertaining second half of the GP. Quite a shame that it took Glocks accident and a SC to set it up. I hope Timo is ok with his hurt back and will be able to drive again soon.

Alonso was completely rattled today after he battled with Vettel in the pitlane and lost. I would compare his 2008 to Schumachers 2005. Both found themselves from a frontrunning in a midfield car. I'm not so impressed how Alonso is coping with this. People were criticising Michael heavily for making more mistakes in 2005 trying to get more out of a car that couldn't be on top. Alonso is doing even worse and he is so much younger. He is certainly a good driver but he could be beyond his prime already. If he goes to Ferrrari in 2010 and Ferrari sucks it would be the end to his carrier.

I disagree, Alonso was trying for all he was worth the ring the neck of an unstable Renault...in the end though every sint was hampered by the same issue, the R28 chews it's rear tyres up. In a better car he would be less ragged less on the edge and the speed would be there instead of being forced.

I was reminded of Michael in more than one way today. Hamilton twice today drove competitors off the track. Ok there were asphalt run offs but it isn't good practise to do such things and Michael would have been criticised as the devil for something like it. Times have changed and McLaren drivers are praised for the same thing.

I saw many overtakes using the same tactics, why the big deal? Brundle was saying the exact same thing...once Lewis was in front and inside they should have conceeded the corner, they chose to fight and go the long way round.

Piquet deserves a bit of praise for keeping his nerves, taking a detour over the run off and not letting Hamilton crash him. He used the lucky opportunity and made the points. It will help his carrier.

Massa was a bit unlucky that his brakes were bad when it counted. He also avoided a fight with Hamilton and let him go without a fight. Probably an intelligent move.

lol - no fight what was that when he tried to repass Lewis then?

McLaren were as bad this time as was Ferrari in Silverstone but they were lucky enough that Hamilton pulled it out of the fire by his no prisoners driving. He drove risky but very well.

BMW was another lucky team to profit from the SC.

Vettel drove beautifully and had a bit of a disadvantage from the SC. He would have finished higher but he took the last point from Trulli and that is what counts in the end.

Williams fall back into anonymity and had Nico not profited from Alonso's mistakes they would not have had any good show in the race. It shows you nead either works resources as McLaren have or a star a designer as Red Bull have with Newey. Perhaps they should retire Pat Head and get a guy like Gascoyne.

[/quote]
What is this Gascoyne worship? He is NOT a designer. He merely decides where to put the design resources. He's ok but he's no Ross Brawn! His reptation came off the back of Brawn and Schumi. What Williams need is more CFD and people skilled to use it. Lenovo should really supply them with an IBM based powerhouse. As for Patrick Head he's a leader of men, he's also an owner...I believe his remit is new technology nowadays..so maybe your decision that the FW30 is going backwards is his fault is a little narrowminded and just plain wrong.

[alvinkhorfire]

I wonder where Macs found that extra performance. How they managed to run with smaller radiator inlets in higher temperatures? Is that new coolants/lubricants?

Actually, it was only 22ºC today. Not hot at all, especially for Germany in the summer. I guess 30º is closer to the average this time of the year.

Regarding Hamilton, he was exceptional today, although team orders and a wimpy Massa did help him a lot.

On TV screen, the sky looks cloudy. As James Allan said (if I am not mistaken), it needs to be at least 35ºC so that Ferrari has a major advantage over McLaren in term of tyre usage. If it was so hot and sunny, Ferrari could have won the race. Since the temperature was relatively low, even Lewis has not much problem running soft tyres. For Ferrari to win, let's hope it will be very hot and sunny on the remaining races.

Thanks to Piquet's podium, Renault are closer to Red Bull and Toyota in Constructors Standing (Toyota 25, Red Bull 24, Renault 23). Maybe Renault can get fourth place as they wanted.

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton; the real Dadz on the track. Everybody has to come out the way when he's coming through lol.

Little boys Can't stand in the way of the champ.

[Chaparral]

Thanks Axle for a very good post it saved me saying exactly the same thing. You will find with WB that he believes he is the love child of Schumi and will go to great lengths to preserve his name while denigrating particularly Freddy Alonso he's done that on numerous occasions on another forum. Freddy wrings everything he can out of any car good or bad and to be honest I think the two disappointing drivers in the recent races have been Massa and KR - it seems since Jean Todt was replaced the team has lost its way I could be wrong though and not that Im complaining

[WhiteBlue]

Alonso is a good driver and I have said so. He is trying very hard to put the Renault higher than the car merits. All I say is that he makes an incredible amount of mistakes in the process. I have compared that with Schumacher 2005 and it is plain to see that the situation is similar. Of course the Alonso fans will never agree to the similarities because they will always think that Alonso won 2005 due to better driving. Realistically he won because that year he had the most reliable and fastest car compared to his rivals. 2008 shows us again that champs can make a difference but they cannot win in a fifth rated car unless its a freak race.

Williams is nowhere again in 2008. That is not going to change unless they seriously improve their technical department by talent and numbers. As long as one partner who hasn't got the leadership talent any more is constantly messing with this they will not attract the talent. They sell themselves as a top team but regularly fail to deliver the car to do the job. Head should retire. His times are long over.

[De Weberis]

Awww shame.. What for?


Also what do people think happened to Glock's rear suspension to break like that? I'm wandering if it was a drive shaft failure leading to the suspension failure.. Anyone got any info on this?

There are two hints.
It was said that Air Glock flew over the kerbs in Friday's FP2 and might have damaged the suspension beyond normal (microfracture that passed undetected by-the-eye quality inspection). Carbon fiber suspension arms are completelly changed after three races, not after each race.
Also John Howlet was complaining that Glock attacks the kerb too much and in France or Silver he even cracked the floor.

[boci]

The Man is truly talented =D> .

Yeah he is good. We will truly see his talent when he has a --- car. It's not hard looking good in the fastest car on track.

If his car was so fast then why did Kovalainen finish down in 5th??