2018 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 31 Aug - 2 Sep

[Andres125sx]

Apparenly the first chicane. Vettel does the exact same thing to Hamilton when they enter the corner. In fact Hamilton has two wheels over the white line and there is not much but a hair between their front tires.

But I do agree, squeezing an opponent before a corner is fair, but these actions were too much. A cars width should be measured between the car and the inside of the white line, not whatever driveable surface is out there. So the penalty is OK.

But I also can understand. The Red Bull is currently in no mans land, 30 seconds adrift of the next car. Ves could land a comfortable fifth in any race, with the engine tuned down. But you would only see the car at the start and in the result table.

Smart thing, points wise, would have been to have Bottas pass on lap 5 and concentrate on fending of vettel. But by taking the fight to Mercedes, it may have cost him 2 points, but gained RB 30 mins of tv coverage, and showed his possible future (2020) employer Mercedes, that he has the measure on Bottas. But in order to be able to do that he has to take everything out of the car and the rules there is, since the car is not quick enough.

You can only squeeze if the driver is slightly behind, not in the braking zone and you MUST leave enough space to hold a cars width AND you must show no intent to cause a collision.

verstappen broke all those requirements.

I think it is very hard to come to a conclusion when we cannot even agree on who was in front. Pity.

Just to clarify my stance. If you read back my posts, I never disputed the penalty for not giving enough room, and I clearly define room as the stuff inside the white lines. But I do dispute that squeezing your opponent right to the limit when entering or exiting a corner is not part of fair racing, and a sign of a devious mental issue.

I don’t know why I feel the need to discuss it. Perhaps it is because I am from an era where the only undisputed track limit was the line of trees lining it, and I hate F1 evolving in a sport which is more regulated than curling.

Anyway. To show how it should be done, by the master himself (and no penalty).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrj3PJZ3IQ

It get me sick when people use unfair past decisions about illegal moves to justify another illegal move. This way any driver can do whatever he wants, as there are plenty of unfair decisions at any aspect of the rules, at any track, and about any aspect of racing.

Is that what we fans want to see? Destruction Derby F1 until someone causes a fatal crash (again, after managing to reduce deaths to a minimum after decades) and then we all will say how clueless that was? Rules are there for a reason, stick to them or you´ll be penalized, even if previously someone wasn´t when he should have been

[Andres125sx]

I’m sorry but if you force another car to go via the polystyrene bollards into turn 1 in normal racing in Monza then you had better be ready for a penalty. I don’t care who you are.

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There is a long history of top drivers pulling such stunts. From Farina to Senna, to Schumacher. Black Jack wasn't called that because of his gentlemanly conduct. All without penalty

But Sir, what´s the reason to condemn me for robbing a wallet when there are people swindling millions?

[Sierra117]

You can only squeeze if the driver is slightly behind, not in the braking zone and you MUST leave enough space to hold a cars width AND you must show no intent to cause a collision.

verstappen broke all those requirements.

I think it is very hard to come to a conclusion when we cannot even agree on who was in front. Pity.

Just to clarify my stance. If you read back my posts, I never disputed the penalty for not giving enough room, and I clearly define room as the stuff inside the white lines. But I do dispute that squeezing your opponent right to the limit when entering or exiting a corner is not part of fair racing, and a sign of a devious mental issue.

I don’t know why I feel the need to discuss it. Perhaps it is because I am from an era where the only undisputed track limit was the line of trees lining it, and I hate F1 evolving in a sport which is more regulated than curling.

Anyway. To show how it should be done, by the master himself (and no penalty).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrj3PJZ3IQ

It get me sick when people use unfair past decisions about illegal moves to justify another illegal move. This way anyone can do anything he wants, as there are plenty of unfair decisions at any aspect of the rules, at any track, and about any aspect of racing.

Is that what we fans want to see? Destruction Derby F1 until someone causes a fatal crash and then we all will say how clueless that was? Rules are there for a reason, stick to them or you´ll be penalized, even if previously someone wasn´t when he should have been

Absolutely. The desire for a podium or to satisfy one's ego is not worth the guilt of causing a horrible crash, knowing you could have done better. I'm really disappointed that the mature heads at the team keep reinforcing it to Max that he's some genius who can't be wrong and if he is well no biggie because the fact is that he's not. There are several kids out there who could do better a la Leclerc. Max is just fortunate and he should definitely reflect on his privilege and be more patient on track. We don't wanna see him or anyone else seriously hurt.

[TwanV]

I think it is very hard to come to a conclusion when we cannot even agree on who was in front. Pity.

Just to clarify my stance. If you read back my posts, I never disputed the penalty for not giving enough room, and I clearly define room as the stuff inside the white lines. But I do dispute that squeezing your opponent right to the limit when entering or exiting a corner is not part of fair racing, and a sign of a devious mental issue.

I don’t know why I feel the need to discuss it. Perhaps it is because I am from an era where the only undisputed track limit was the line of trees lining it, and I hate F1 evolving in a sport which is more regulated than curling.

Anyway. To show how it should be done, by the master himself (and no penalty).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrj3PJZ3IQ

It get me sick when people use unfair past decisions about illegal moves to justify another illegal move. This way anyone can do anything he wants, as there are plenty of unfair decisions at any aspect of the rules, at any track, and about any aspect of racing.

Is that what we fans want to see? Destruction Derby F1 until someone causes a fatal crash and then we all will say how clueless that was? Rules are there for a reason, stick to them or you´ll be penalized, even if previously someone wasn´t when he should have been

Absolutely. The desire for a podium or to satisfy one's ego is not worth the guilt of causing a horrible crash, knowing you could have done better. I'm really disappointed that the mature heads at the team keep reinforcing it to Max that he's some genius who can't be wrong and if he is well no biggie because the fact is that he's not. There are several kids out there who could do better a la Leclerc. Max is just fortunate and he should definitely reflect on his privilege and be more patient on track. We don't wanna see him or anyone else seriously hurt.

This story is getting older and older. Racing for a podium is racing period. The fact that some drivers don't do that because they can't be bothered is the end of the sport. You say destruction derby, we say mistake. At least he tries. Andres, fatal accidents? When you make statements like that, it's just offensive. Sierra, you simply don't like VES because he is fortunate and privileged. Really nobody from a poor background will ever make it to F1. Get over it, I'm not here ranting about Alonso's behaviour every week either.

[SiLo]

Guys, at some point it is time to give it a rest, this used to be part of racing:

https://youtu.be/qNrj3PJZ3IQ

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Right on Sieper.. Apparently some either have short memories or are newbies.

Would like to point out that there is the exact width of a car there and Webber turns in BEFORE Hamilton. That's why there was no penalty.

[TwanV]

Guys, at some point it is time to give it a rest, this used to be part of racing:

https://youtu.be/qNrj3PJZ3IQ

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Right on Sieper.. Apparently some either have short memories or are newbies.

Would like to point out that there is the exact width of a car there and Webber turns in BEFORE Hamilton. That's why there was no penalty.

Were there even penalties for these things in 2008? The whole as-the-world-turns steward-system that we have now was introduced in 2009 if I recall correctly.

[SiLo]

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Right on Sieper.. Apparently some either have short memories or are newbies.

Would like to point out that there is the exact width of a car there and Webber turns in BEFORE Hamilton. That's why there was no penalty.

Were there even penalties for these things in 2008? The whole as-the-world-turns steward-system that we have now was introduced in 2009 if I recall correctly.

I don't think there was, it was all change from 2009. Whether it has benefited the sport I am still undecided on.

[Phil]

Are you guys STILL arguing about Max’s 5 sec penalty? It wasnt that incident in isolation. The fact that he short cutted the chicane earlier was part of the reason whx he got less leeway when crowding Bottas. Whiting said to RB that the tolerance was used and the team relayed this info to Max before that incident that triggered the 5 sec penalty.

[Sieper]

Although the stewards said they did not take into account the previous situation explicitly I am inclined to agree with you on that, again, I also feel that was a bit unfair as Bottas was coming in from way to deep and had a quite big lock up because of that. That was not an OK move at all.

[Sierra117]

This story is getting older and older. Racing for a podium is racing period. The fact that some drivers don't do that because they can't be bothered is the end of the sport. You say destruction derby, we say mistake. At least he tries. Andres, fatal accidents? When you make statements like that, it's just offensive. Sierra, you simply don't like VES because he is fortunate and privileged. Really nobody from a poor background will ever make it to F1. Get over it, I'm not here ranting about Alonso's behaviour every week either.

No, I do not hate Verstappen. Please do not make such conclusions. I may dislike that he isn't realising his fortunate position, but again, I do not hate him. He will hate himself for wasting his own time, energy and opportunities, should he remain on this path. Also, there are people from "poor" backgrounds (relatively speaking) that made it to F1. Lewis is an example himself and if memory serves, Ocon is also someone who used to live in a caravan for quite some time to fund his racing. But anyway ...

Racing for a podium, you say? What's the worth of that podium if the person you're racing against is seriously injured or, God-forbid, dead? Racing used to be more dangerous, but there was also real respect no matter how tough they fought. Just listen to the older drivers' memoirs and interviews. In other aspects of life, let's say back when wars were fought with swords and spears, there was a certain honour in the way you fought (at least amongst cultured nations).

This is going to tangent into a longer conversation about how nowadays we're all dying inside and life has become so incredibly materialistic. But the point is that we should make a conscious effort to forego that and look at the bigger picture. It's a freaking game at the end of the day. If a driver consciously says screw it, I'll do whatever I want, I'll move aggressively all because I want a podium, then sorry, that kind of thinking should not be on the race track, much like reckless driving and texting/drinking and driving doesn't belong on the road. They happen, but they should always be penalised. Kimi and Lewis fought hard too and neither of them did something stupid. That's all.

[sosic2121]

Guys, at some point it is time to give it a rest, this used to be part of racing:

https://youtu.be/qNrj3PJZ3IQ

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Right on Sieper.. Apparently some either have short memories or are newbies.

Or for people with very short memories:

https://youtu.be/sE-j-NpdlT0

What are you trying to show as?
That Max doesn't know what does white lines are for?
Or that cheating is RB modus operandi?
Or that FIA is letting them to get away with it?

[TwanV]

Thank you Sierra117, to responding so maturely, as opposed to my slightly frustrated one. But we have to remember that racing had its inception in survival and risk, it's linked to the sport. And knights are only chivalrous in the presence of ladies or in fairy tales, however when they got on with the job they were there to kill the other side or be killed, without any sort of sporting regulations.

Anyway, not to stray from the point, in the old days the chance to not make it through the season was very real. So even if they didn't bang wheels all the time, the risk was by no means lesser of course. Now, that is hardly an ideal situation and thanks to sanity and progress we now have cars that are ultra safe. So, the (attractive) risk has changed from mortal danger that a wheel would fall off at 300kph sitting in a petrol tank to a more aggressive fight for position,i.e. racing. Senna and Mansell were the first exponents of this change in mentality in my opinion and their driving was for the better. Anyway, due to this change in the character of the sport, I don't think it's a fair comment these days that on the racetrack, people are responsible for life and death. Freak accidents happen sadly as they do in any other sport, but never since as far as I remember was this caused by overtaking manoeuvres.
Furthermore, I protest against the hint of a suggestion that drivers do bring other drivers into mortal danger on purpose, they're there to race and maximise their result. Some drivers do this differently than others, some make more mistakes than others, some are happy to go for 4th, others will defend at all cost. So.. I do think its fair to blame VES for possibly ruining someone else's race due to driver error in defending (a crash was narrowly averted), but to go farther is unnecessary in my book.

[GrandAxe]

Any driver who shows disdain for rules really doesn't have the levels of maturity required to be in such a dangerous sport. Agreed racing is a much safer business than it used to be, but lets not forget that it is rules and conventions that have made it so.

Rules are serious business. They can be the difference between life and death; a very promising driver, Jules Bianchi lost his life for a seemingly small infraction just a few short years ago. He would most likely have been the lead Ferrari driver today (since he was part of their young driver academy), perhaps fighting for the title.

Max had already been read the riot act about his driving (at that very same corner no less), but no, dude had to bump another car off the road. Its no excuse that Bottas move was pathetic. In fact, its the more reason Max didn't need to drift across the track so aggressively to block a move that would have failed anyway.
Then he went further to "punish" Bottas by gifting him the place while demoting himself two places and losing WCC points in addition. Properly blunt tool that.

[TwanV]

Any driver who shows disdain for rules really doesn't have the levels of maturity required to be in such a dangerous sport. Agreed racing is a much safer business than it used to be, but lets not forget that it is rules and conventions that have made it so.

Rules are serious business. They can be the difference between life and death; a very promising driver, Jules Bianchi lost his life for a seemingly small infraction just a few short years ago. He would most likely have been the lead Ferrari driver today (since he was part of their young driver academy), perhaps fighting for the title.

Max had already been read the riot act about his driving (at that very same corner no less), but no, dude had to bump another car off the road. Its no excuse that Bottas move was pathetic. In fact, its the more reason Max didn't need to drift across the track so aggressively to block a move that would have failed anyway.
Then he went further to "punish" Bottas by gifting him the place while demoting himself two places and losing WCC points in addition. Properly blunt tool that.

Everybody regrets the death of Bianchi, but really this doesn't have anything to do with stationary tow trucks parked along the track without a safety car, this is about overtaking behaviour. The Bianchi card stops any discussion for some, and if you want that then fine.

[turbof1]

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Right on Sieper.. Apparently some either have short memories or are newbies.

Or for people with very short memories:

https://youtu.be/sE-j-NpdlT0

What are you trying to show as?
That Max doesn't know what does white lines are for?
Or that cheating is RB modus operandi?
Or that FIA is letting them to get away with it?

They are show you to move on and to put things into perspective. Let's not make a big deal out of messages that are trying to say you shouldn't be making a big deal out of the whole mess.