Technical analysis of completing and defending overtakes

[JonoNic]

Making any analysis of overtakes can be very controversial if it becomes biased. I am not a Hamilton fan (I can't stand him), but I found his overtake on Vettel (Monza 2018) to be very interesting and quite brilliant as he could only do it if Vettel attempted to overtake Raikkonen. Vettel should have waited for the following group to settle before attempting his overtake.

What are your views?

Please analyse any other overtakes here too... e.g. Comparing Ocon's failed attempt at passing Vettel at Spa 2018 to Hakkinen's pass on Schumacher at the same venue in 2000.

[DiogoBrand]

I think Hamilton gave Vettel just enough space, the problem was that Vettel didn't wanna lose the position (oh really?), so he didn't brake enough to be able to rotate the car. You can see that at the moment of the impact his car was pointing at the apex of the second leg of the chicane, which would be impossible to make with a car on his right side.

As for Verstappen on Bottas, does anyone have any doubt that it was just a dick move?

[JonoNic]

As for Verstappen on Bottas, does anyone have any doubt that it was just a dick move?

Isn't that just a message to Bottas that Verstappen will make life difficult for him if he cannot keep pace with the front three?

[DiogoBrand]

As for Verstappen on Bottas, does anyone have any doubt that it was just a dick move?

Isn't that just a message to Bottas that Verstappen will make life difficult for him if he cannot keep pace with the front three?

The problem in this case wasn't even Bottas' ability to keep up, but actually Mercedes sacrificing his race to get the win.
I really don't know what Verstappen's intention is. I remember seeing a video of Martin Brundle talking about Ayrton Senna, that he used to put other drivers in a position where if they didn't let him pass there would be an accident, and if they did let him pass, he knew that from then on they'd let him pass every time he showed a wheel.
I don't know if that's his intention, or he's just plain reckless. All I know is that so far he just seems to be throwing his talent away with that sort of bullshit.

[dans79]

The problem in this case wasn't even Bottas' ability to keep up, but actually Mercedes sacrificing his race to get the win.
I really don't know what Verstappen's intention is. I remember seeing a video of Martin Brundle talking about Ayrton Senna, that he used to put other drivers in a position where if they didn't let him pass there would be an accident, and if they did let him pass, he knew that from then on they'd let him pass every time he showed a wheel.
I don't know if that's his intention, or he's just plain reckless. All I know is that so far he just seems to be throwing his talent away with that sort of bullshit.

The difference is that when Senna did it, the other driver is the one who usually caused the contact. When Max does it, he is usually the one causing the contact. It's minutiae, but still a very important detail.

[JonoNic]

The problem in this case wasn't even Bottas' ability to keep up, but actually Mercedes sacrificing his race to get the win.
I really don't know what Verstappen's intention is. I remember seeing a video of Martin Brundle talking about Ayrton Senna, that he used to put other drivers in a position where if they didn't let him pass there would be an accident, and if they did let him pass, he knew that from then on they'd let him pass every time he showed a wheel.
I don't know if that's his intention, or he's just plain reckless. All I know is that so far he just seems to be throwing his talent away with that sort of bullshit.

The difference is that when Senna did it, the other driver is the one who usually caused the contact. When Max does it, he is usually the one causing the contact. It's minutiae, but still a very important detail.

I agree dans79. That is exactly what impressed me about Hamilton's overtake on Vettel at Monza. Vettel made the contact

[JonoNic]

Hamilton vs Vettel Monza 2018


Vettel vs Hamilton Spa 2017 then 2018

[wesley123]

As for Verstappen on Bottas, does anyone have any doubt that it was just a dick move?

Isn't that just a message to Bottas that Verstappen will make life difficult for him if he cannot keep pace with the front three?

Since when is it his job to decide what other teams should and shouldn't do?

It was 100% a dick move, the whole tantrum that he threw afterwards pretty much confirm it.

[JonoNic]

Yeah. My previous comment wasn't really technical. Sorry

[Red Rock Mutley]

https://youtu.be/2WVc8GFTcg4
Hamilton vs Vettel Monza 2018

https://youtu.be/9GW-QutnX-E
Vettel vs Hamilton Spa 2017 then 2018

Those incidents are interesting because Hamilton is playing the long game. That's unusual in F1. Normally drivers look to maximise every opportunity with little regard to consequences; which often ends in death, or glory. But Hamilton is minimising the pain when he knows he is going to lose

It's an impressive mindset from Hamilton. I don't know whether he's just a more mature driver now, or whether he's focused on Vettel's weaknesses, but either way, his driving character shows a willingness to be a little more compliant to the natural ebb and flow of a season long battle

He has that confidence of a multi-World Champion at the top of his game, so he knows the race wins will come, what's going to determine this year's championship are the factors out of his control. And he's managing those losses

[DiogoBrand]

Another thing to prove that Verstappen is just being stupid: After he got the penalty, there's a team radio of him saying "I don't care if I'm losing time to Vettel".
So basically, even though he already lost his position to Bottas, he'll rather lose time to the drivers behind defending his track position than actually let someone pass and maybe have a chance of finishing 5 seconds ahead of Vettel.

Here in Brazil we have a saying for people that waste talent or opportunities: "God doesn't give wings to snakes". And it applies perfectly to Verstappen's case, all the talent in the world wasted by a stupid brain.

[TAG]

I remember seeing a video of Martin Brundle talking about Ayrton Senna, that he used to put other drivers in a position where if they didn't let him pass there would be an accident, and if they did let him pass, he knew that from then on they'd let him pass every time he showed a wheel.
I don't know if that's his intention, or he's just plain reckless. All I know is that so far he just seems to be throwing his talent away with that sort of bullshit.

I've said this in the past, Verstappen has been allowed to race by his team and the FiA as if he'd already won multiple championships. That horse is long out of the barn.

Drivers that are great at overtaking are also notoriously difficult to overtake. Alonso, Massa and Hamilton are the best examples of this in recent years. Ricciardo and Verstappen are are also both good examples. The thing is that you need a body of work to be able to make this judgement free of the coloration of being a fan or a hater or simply enamored by the novelty of newness.

[TwanV]

This thread is a good idea, but everyone seems offtopic or perhaps it's my subjective interpretation of a technical analysis. I would call it: Local Campground of the Fellowship of Inconsolable Verstappen Critics.

What maybe would be nicer is to take a couple of good, bad and ugly overtakes and analyse with sporting regulations in hand why they are on or over the limit? JonoNic was that your intention?

[Big Tea]

This thread is a good idea, but everyone seems offtopic or perhaps it's my subjective interpretation of a technical analysis. I would call it: Local Campground of the Fellowship of Inconsolable Verstappen Critics.

Well technically its an analysis. its F1, use the gray area

[JonoNic]

This thread is a good idea, but everyone seems offtopic or perhaps it's my subjective interpretation of a technical analysis. I would call it: Local Campground of the Fellowship of Inconsolable Verstappen Critics.

What maybe would be nicer is to take a couple of good, bad and ugly overtakes and analyse with sporting regulations in hand why they are on or over the limit? JonoNic was that your intention?

Yes. My intention is to understand why some commenters would complain about an overtake then a veteran commenter would come on and clarify why the overtake was good/ok/horrible/brilliant. If more of us understand what makes an overtake brilliant or not then it should lead to better discussions. Any new or old overtake (successful or not) can be discussed or dissected here instead of on a race thread.

Maybe some ground rules must be laid in order to discuss in the topic? I'm all for that.