Technical analysis of completing and defending overtakes

[flynfrog]

So when are you guys going to do some analysis? Posting videos and arguing about drivers can be done in the race thread.

[Sevach]

Most drivers come back to crowd the driver on the outside, IMO Verstappen just miscalculated, was too aggressive in his closing move.

Which would be okay if it was his first time being an ass to defend a position.

Honestly, what earns him such a bad wrap, is his routine meltdowns every time he's told he has a penalty.

Yeah, i agree, i've seen many drivers(multiple world champions included) do this particular move wrong, but Verstappen's bad attitude makes it seem like he'll never learn.

[roon]

What would a 'technical analysis' of an overtake be? The OP makes qualitative claims as part of their analysis ("...very interesting and quite brilliant..."), but this is not technical in the sense of objective or quantifiable.

"Vettel should have waited for the following group to settle before attempting his overtake."

This claim is informed by hindsight.

"Please analyse any other overtakes here too... e.g. Comparing Ocon's failed attempt at passing Vettel at Spa 2018 to Hakkinen's pass on Schumacher at the same venue in 2000."

Is the goal to explain why a driver did or did not choose to pass? Why, or why not, they did not complete a pass?

[Just_a_fan]

What would a 'technical analysis' of an overtake be?

It's just mod-speak for "we might lock this thread soon as it looks a bit "my driver is better than yours" ".

Most of the threads on this forum are lacking any form of analysis, technical or otherwise. This one is, at least currently, well behaved.

[Just_a_fan]

https://youtu.be/3oDUdeiIinc

Here are 100 passes by Senna without any commentary, only stupid music.

What I noticed that there are not many lock-ups from these drivers who ultimately had less aero back then.

I guess it was easier back then as the tracks all went the opposite way!
The videos confused me as I kept recognising bits of track and then they turned the wrong way. Took me a while to realise that the video is mirrored - presumably for copyright reasons.

[henry]

We could do start by doing some analysis of the single most common aspect of overtakes, braking.

How much later, time or distance, does a driver have to brake to gain n car lengths? What are the implications for their ability to modulate brake pedal force during the stop? What effect might being in the slipstream have?

We might then have a feeling for what sets the really good brakers, Hamilton, Ricciardo, other personal favourites, apart from their peers, and how different they are.

[marmer]

We could do start by doing some analysis of the single most common aspect of overtakes, braking.

How much later, time or distance, does a driver have to brake to gain n car lengths? What are the implications for their ability to modulate brake pedal force during the stop? What effect might being in the slipstream have?

We might then have a feeling for what sets the really good brakers, Hamilton, Ricciardo, other personal favourites, apart from their peers, and how different they are.

I think now a lot of Ricardo's overtaking by going so much later on the brakes is actually helped by reputation more than his skill level (not saying he isn't great)

If he is behind you and your going into a heavy braking corner you know he is faster as he is catching you. You know from past history he is great on the brakes so you know he will try something inside and outside. So what's the point of trying to block him too hard he will hit you (max in baku got this wrong) risk taking you and him out of the race. The better long game tactic is to hope he out brakes himself so you keep position.

[JonoNic]

We could do start by doing some analysis of the single most common aspect of overtakes, braking.

How much later, time or distance, does a driver have to brake to gain n car lengths? What are the implications for their ability to modulate brake pedal force during the stop? What effect might being in the slipstream have?

We might then have a feeling for what sets the really good brakers, Hamilton, Ricciardo, other personal favourites, apart from their peers, and how different they are.

In isolation to a particular bend (In order to compare taking the normal corner to how it's taken in an overtake). We could include what percentage of the braking is done with front wheels straight compared to in the bend. We could also look into which drivers try to straighten their braking into that bend. These are all skills that can be analysed.

[illario]

[Edax]

We could do start by doing some analysis of the single most common aspect of overtakes, braking.

How much later, time or distance, does a driver have to brake to gain n car lengths? What are the implications for their ability to modulate brake pedal force during the stop? What effect might being in the slipstream have?

We might then have a feeling for what sets the really good brakers, Hamilton, Ricciardo, other personal favourites, apart from their peers, and how different they are.

I think now a lot of Ricardo's overtaking by going so much later on the brakes is actually helped by reputation more than his skill level (not saying he isn't great)

If he is behind you and your going into a heavy braking corner you know he is faster as he is catching you. You know from past history he is great on the brakes so you know he will try something inside and outside. So what's the point of trying to block him too hard he will hit you (max in baku got this wrong) risk taking you and him out of the race. The better long game tactic is to hope he out brakes himself so you keep position.

Indeed. What Ricciardo does best is precisely aim his ultimate braking point and brake perfectly, even off-line.

But it are divebombs and their succes totally depend on the cooperation of the other driver. When someone doesn’t see him or doesn’t care he is in trouble. He cannot brake harder and he cannot steer without locking up. Look at what happened in Monza when Gasly just steered in. He was lucky not to lose his nose in the contact, because he had nowhere to go. And if there would have been damage on Gasly’s car he would surely have gotten a penalty.

I am not sure whether that is ricciardo’s preffered style or something which is given by his car, as it is difficult to get close or alongside in the RB.

Personally I like it when people release the brakes a bit mid-braking, to pull ahead in the braking zone, and then continue braking . Vettel regularly does this (clearly not last race), and quite strongly. That seems much more controlled than what Ricciardo is doing. Mainly because up to the point where he releases the brakes he has the option to bail out. So he has bought some time to see what the other guy is doing and to react.

[Sevach]

Indeed. What Ricciardo does best is precisely aim his ultimate braking point and brake perfectly, even off-line.

But it are divebombs and their succes totally depend on the cooperation of the other driver. When someone doesn’t see him or doesn’t care he is in trouble. He cannot brake harder and he cannot steer without locking up. Look at what happened in Monza when Gasly just steered in. He was lucky not to lose his nose in the contact, because he had nowhere to go. And if there would have been damage on Gasly’s car he would surely have gotten a penalty.

I am not sure whether that is ricciardo’s preffered style or something which is given by his car, as it is difficult to get close or alongside in the RB.

Personally I like it when people release the brakes a bit mid-braking, to pull ahead in the braking zone, and then continue braking . Vettel regularly does this (clearly not last race), and quite strongly. That seems much more controlled than what Ricciardo is doing. Mainly because up to the point where he releases the brakes he has the option to bail out. So he has bought some time to see what the other guy is doing and to react.

I'm curious to how Ricciardo will behave next year in a (predicted)midfield car.
We've seen time and time again how midfield guys don't really fight guys on big teams.
They don't guard the inside, let them dive bomb, don't even press overtake to get full boost.

Ricciardo is good but he may need to be a little more cautious next year.
People have caught on to his "i'm moving to the outsi... just dove past you on the inside".

Though to his credit he rarely crashes even when guys don't fall for it.

[Big Tea]

Indeed. What Ricciardo does best is precisely aim his ultimate braking point and brake perfectly, even off-line.

But it are divebombs and their succes totally depend on the cooperation of the other driver. When someone doesn’t see him or doesn’t care he is in trouble. He cannot brake harder and he cannot steer without locking up. Look at what happened in Monza when Gasly just steered in. He was lucky not to lose his nose in the contact, because he had nowhere to go. And if there would have been damage on Gasly’s car he would surely have gotten a penalty.

I am not sure whether that is ricciardo’s preffered style or something which is given by his car, as it is difficult to get close or alongside in the RB.

Personally I like it when people release the brakes a bit mid-braking, to pull ahead in the braking zone, and then continue braking . Vettel regularly does this (clearly not last race), and quite strongly. That seems much more controlled than what Ricciardo is doing. Mainly because up to the point where he releases the brakes he has the option to bail out. So he has bought some time to see what the other guy is doing and to react.

I'm curious to how Ricciardo will behave next year in a (predicted)midfield car.
We've seen time and time again how midfield guys don't really fight guys on big teams.
They don't guard the inside, let them dive bomb, don't even press overtake to get full boost.

Ricciardo is good but he may need to be a little more cautious next year.
People have caught on to his "i'm moving to the outsi... just dove past you on the inside".

Though to his credit he rarely crashes even when guys don't fall for it.

Yip, there is a lot in what you say.
Midfield drivers want to finish in the points so probably think 'its not my fight, let him go' if it is a top 6 car, where as all drivers think they can bring their car home in the points, so will be 'fighting' Renault.
He moves from being one of 'them' to being 'one of us', and will be noticed and obstructed, not waved bye.

[JonoNic]

I haven't watched the last race so feel free to add any overtakes for analysis here.

[marmer]

Sirgi defence against Perez was quite an achievement in a slow car on old tyres he held him off for ages and even when Perez attempted a move he was able to stay a longside long enough to be on the inside for the next corner. Which clearly Perez either got fed up with how well sirgi was defending and rammed him or genuinely couldn't believe he could still be there. But based on first lap with ocon Perez might be suffering with tunnel vision

[JonoNic]

Tunnel vision could be a big problem for quite a few drivers. I remember Ralf Schumacher had some issues with his contact lenses while cornering due to astigmatism that caused the lenses to move around. This decreased his field and quality of vision.