- Login or Register
No account yet? Sign up
Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
Mercedes TE figures are on dyno only, they do not reach that on track.Dr. Acula wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 00:20That's exactly how it is.Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 22:52noapexcontrol wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 19:13
Well there's already a problem, 50% thermal efficiency, isn't even near 1000hp.
Explain plz. in my book thermal efficiency does not say much about max hp, but how long you can use that power
thermal efficiency refers to harvesting of power
TE is the percentage of the fuel's chemical energy (heat) that is turned into mechanical energy (work)
the power (work rate) = TE x the fuel rate x the lower heating value of the fuel
the best TE might not be at the max fuel rate but we can be sure the max power is at the max fuel rate
stored energy isn't counted as it's energy that originated from the ICE and mustn't be counted twice
Everybody can look up the lower heating value of normal Gasoline. Depending where you search for it you can find values between 40 and 43.5MJ/kg. The stuff they use in F1 has maybe a slightly higher value. But Let's go with 43.5MJ/kg first. Max fuel flow is 100kg/h and we have 50% efficiency. (Btw. Mercedes stated, the whole PU as a package has surpassed 50% TE. This means the poweroutput of the MGU-K adds to this. The ICE alone isn't even near 50% efficiency.)
So as everybody can see, not even close to 1000hp.
If we add 1% to the efficiency and say the fuel has a lower heating value of 45MJ/kg, we would end up with about 867hp. So now we are in the same ballpark as the AMuS power values if we subtract the MGU-K power and add 40hp because they wrote about the ICE power output in quali mode with open wastegates.
Merc has reached more than 50% TE already at the end of last year. They could be very well slightly more efficient now. So if we think about all this, the AMuS values are probably not perfectly exact, but quite realistic.
Only MGU-K can send power to the crank directly. Is the turbo not contributing to crankshaft power? Is not the turbo controlled by the MGU-H? Does this MGU-H allow one to open the wastegates? Does this not contribute to crank power?saviour stivala wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 10:13There are only two source of power allowed. electrical engine (MGU-K) and ICE. Only the MGU-K can add power to the ICE crankshaft.
Well, the turbo doesn't count directly. TE basically means the amount of power you get in the form you need compared to the form you start with. You need mechanical power on the clutch and the turbo can't provide you that by itself. The turbo and MGU-H affects other component to work basically more efficient. But by itself it doesn't provide any power to propel the car forward. The MGU-H isn't mechanically connected to the drivetrain in any way as we all know. So for the TE value of the whole PU only the ICE and the MGU-K count for the calculation.godlameroso wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:13Only MGU-K can send power to the crank directly. Is the turbo not contributing to crankshaft power? Is not the turbo controlled by the MGU-H? Does this MGU-H allow one to open the wastegates? Does this not contribute to crank power?saviour stivala wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 10:13There are only two source of power allowed. electrical engine (MGU-K) and ICE. Only the MGU-K can add power to the ICE crankshaft.
there is only two power producers, "K" and "ICE", I do not believe that you of all people on here i need tell you this.godlameroso wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:13Only MGU-K can send power to the crank directly. Is the turbo not contributing to crankshaft power? Is not the turbo controlled by the MGU-H? Does this MGU-H allow one to open the wastegates? Does this not contribute to crank power?saviour stivala wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 10:13There are only two source of power allowed. electrical engine (MGU-K) and ICE. Only the MGU-K can add power to the ICE crankshaft.
And it entirely depends on how they did the calculations. I have always questioned how the number is being derived. Not questioned in the sense that I don't believe the number, but are we comparing apples to apples. I'd like to know the details of how it was calculated. These are dyno numbers, are drivetrain losses considered? What was the state of the ES when the TE test/calc was started. If it was fully charged then the TE will be artificially skewed (free work from the ES will skew this if the ES is driving the MGU-H for supercharging or deploying to the MGU-K). If it was empty was the energy state return to the previous level prior ending the test. A lot of little things will cause the TE to change. Lots a ways to look at how the numbers came about which we will never know the answer, I'm afraid.Dr. Acula wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:31
Well, the turbo doesn't count directly. TE basically means the amount of power you get in the form you need compared to the form you start with. You need mechanical power on the clutch and the turbo can't provide you that by itself. The turbo and MGU-H affects other component to work basically more efficient. But by itself it doesn't provide any power to propel the car forward. The MGU-H isn't mechanically connected to the drivetrain in any way as we all know. So for the TE value of the whole PU only the ICE and the MGU-K count for the calculation.
Where's the disagreement? The K contributes directly to crank power, the H does so inderectly, this is expressly encouraged and allowed by the rules.saviour stivala wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:41there is only two power producers, "K" and "ICE", I do not believe that you of all people on here i need tell you this.godlameroso wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:13Only MGU-K can send power to the crank directly. Is the turbo not contributing to crankshaft power? Is not the turbo controlled by the MGU-H? Does this MGU-H allow one to open the wastegates? Does this not contribute to crank power?saviour stivala wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 10:13There are only two source of power allowed. electrical engine (MGU-K) and ICE. Only the MGU-K can add power to the ICE crankshaft.
The MGU-H is directly responsible for maintaining the breathing requirements of the ICE. The ICE is the thing moving the rest of the drivetrain last I checked. The connection of the turbo to the drivetrain is a direct fluid coupling. It seems like a stretch at first sight, however it is obvious that controlling the amount of air and fuel entering the engine has a direct result on the drivetrain, it(air and fuel) is after all the prime mover.Dr. Acula wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:31Well, the turbo doesn't count directly. TE basically means the amount of power you get in the form you need compared to the form you start with. You need mechanical power on the clutch and the turbo can't provide you that by itself. The turbo and MGU-H affects other component to work basically more efficient. But by itself it doesn't provide any power to propel the car forward. The MGU-H isn't mechanically connected to the drivetrain in any way as we all know. So for the TE value of the whole PU only the ICE and the MGU-K count for the calculation.godlameroso wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 13:13Only MGU-K can send power to the crank directly. Is the turbo not contributing to crankshaft power? Is not the turbo controlled by the MGU-H? Does this MGU-H allow one to open the wastegates? Does this not contribute to crank power?saviour stivala wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 10:13There are only two source of power allowed. electrical engine (MGU-K) and ICE. Only the MGU-K can add power to the ICE crankshaft.
Interesting way of describing that, I hadn't thought of it that way before!godlameroso wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 15:26The connection of the turbo to the drivetrain is a direct fluid coupling.
We can open a separate topic with power unit (peak) power comparisons/sources? Max Verstappen said today they miss 70 hp compared to the top teams. Which is pretty much in line with the differences stated above.
Ferrari_____________790 + 160 + 40 = 990 hp
The values from AMuS are already meant for Quali mode. It's more the case that they have 40hp less in the race.
To be honest if these values are correct, it is amazing how far away is Renault compared to the big two! (off-topic
)