Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[AJI]

A road test of three e-cars has the following.

The e-Pedal in the Leaf is so fierce you can come to a stop without even touching the brakes – which might not impress the car behind looking for your brake lights to illuminate...

We'll then they need to change that, because, that's literally dangerously retarded...

[Big Tea]

they fix off-accelerator 'regen' over-run torque to match roughly the conventional car's off-accelerator over-run torque
this is what makes it legal

What law is it that says how a vehicle behaves in the way you describe?

A road test of three e-cars has the following.

The e-Pedal in the Leaf is so fierce you can come to a stop without even touching the brakes – which might not impress the car behind looking for your brake lights to illuminate.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... -Golf.html

Good article, but is the tester just doing the same as me and just assuming the stop lights are not coming on?
I am also quite surprised at the price. Starting at 30k for a small runabout with no engine or gearbox?

[subcritical71]

Good article, but is the tester just doing the same as me and just assuming the stop lights are not coming on?
I am also quite surprised at the price. Starting at 30k for a small runabout with no engine or gearbox?

I only know the behavior of the Tesla, but there is a crossover point where if the deceleration is great enough the rear brake lights turn on even without pushing the brake pedal. This was my biggest concern during my test drive because the deceleration is not overly aggressive like the Leaf appears to be, but non the less without a warning to following cars it could catch them out and cause a collision. The dash display does show when the brake lights are activated. I found this video;
https://youtu.be/KnOwWyUsJlE?t=10m18s
which shows the behavior. Also have a look at his analysis of the regen characteristics starting at the ~5 minute point.

[subcritical71]

In the US there are only a few requirements for the stop lamp activation with no specific activation point specified;

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 8&rgn=div8 (start of the tables about 1/2 way down the page)

Steady burning.

• Must be activated upon application of the service brakes.

• When optically combined with a turn signal lamp, the circuit must be such that the stop signal cannot be activated if the turn signal lamp is flashing.

• May also be activated by a device designed to retard the motion of the vehicle.

The United Nations has actually been involved and has these international requirements;

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/tran ... 13hr2e.pdf (Section 5.2.22.4);

• Generation of a braking signal to illuminate stop lamps.

• Activation of the service braking system by the driver shall generate a signal that will be used to illuminate the stop lamps.

• Activation of the service braking system by "automatically commanded braking" shall generate the signal mentioned above. However, when the retardation generated is less than 0.7 m/s2, the signal may be suppressed.

• Activation of part of the service braking system by "selective braking" shall not generate the signal mentioned above.

• Electric regenerative braking systems as defined in paragraph 2.17., which produce a retarding force upon release of the accelerator control, shall generate the signal mentioned above according to the following provisions:

Vehicle decelerations -> Signal generation
≤ 0.7 m/s2 -> The signal shall not be generated
> 0.7 m/s2 and ≤ 1.3 m/s2 -> The signal may be generated
> 1.3 m/s2 -> The signal shall be generated.

(0.7 m/s2 = 0.07 g)
(1.3 m/s2 = 0.13 g)

[AJI]

In the US there are only a few requirements for the stop lamp activation with no specific activation point specified;

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 8&rgn=div8 (start of the tables about 1/2 way down the page)

Steady burning.

• Must be activated upon application of the service brakes.

• When optically combined with a turn signal lamp, the circuit must be such that the stop signal cannot be activated if the turn signal lamp is flashing.

• May also be activated by a device designed to retard the motion of the vehicle.

The United Nations has actually been involved and has these international requirements;

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/tran ... 13hr2e.pdf (Section 5.2.22.4);

• Generation of a braking signal to illuminate stop lamps.

• Activation of the service braking system by the driver shall generate a signal that will be used to illuminate the stop lamps.

• Activation of the service braking system by "automatically commanded braking" shall generate the signal mentioned above. However, when the retardation generated is less than 0.7 m/s2, the signal may be suppressed.

• Activation of part of the service braking system by "selective braking" shall not generate the signal mentioned above.

• Electric regenerative braking systems as defined in paragraph 2.17., which produce a retarding force upon release of the accelerator control, shall generate the signal mentioned above according to the following provisions:

Vehicle decelerations -> Signal generation
≤ 0.7 m/s2 -> The signal shall not be generated
> 0.7 m/s2 and ≤ 1.3 m/s2 -> The signal may be generated
> 1.3 m/s2 -> The signal shall be generated.

(0.7 m/s2 = 0.07 g)
(1.3 m/s2 = 0.13 g)

Nice work! I'd upvote you, but I can't on the phone..? I'll give you one later.

It's only logical the the brake lights turn on in the Leaf within the parameters you mention. I doubt Nissan/Renault want a class action law suit...

[henry]

Nice work @subcritical71

I had a quick look at the UK situation

The basic rules are in The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 Shedule 12,

10. Electrical connections–

(a) Every stop lamp fitted to–

(i)a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination first used on or after 1st April 1986 shall be operated by the application of every service brake control provided for the use of the rider;
(ii)any other motor vehicle, shall be operated by the application of the service braking system.
(b) Every stop lamp fitted to a trailer drawn by a motor vehicle shall be operated by the application of the service braking system of that motor vehicle.

There is also an EU directive 91/663/EEC which says:

4.7.7 Electrical connections
Stop lamps must light up when the service brake is applied . They need not function if the device which starts and / or stops the engine is in a position which makes it impossible for the engine to operate .

Since this 1991 directive confirms the 1989 UK Law there was no need to amend the UK law. And since they are both from 30 years ago have no specific mention of regenerative braking.

However, the term “service braking system” might be argued by the lawyers to be anything that slows the vehicle faster than the “natural” deceleration rate when drive power is removed.

At some point I would expect the U.N. description will be adopted here. Rather like the directives on In Car Child Restraints and their use, the UK rules for which started in the U.N. , were confirmed in the EU and were then incorporated into UK Law.

[Tommy Cookers]

EVs may do their torque conversion another way (or not ?) but they have eg 3 gears

I looked at Tesla S, Nissan Leaf, BMW i3, Renault Zoe. They all claim single speed.
What examples are ther of more gears?

NOTE TO SELF - ok I was wrong - newer and/or more credible models seem to be 'single speed'
(Tesla Roadster etc weren't - had induction motors ie open-loop - unusual conditions certification issues not inconceivable)
so models now 'single speed' with a switched reluctance machine (Tesla 3) or synchronous machine (Leaf)

but there's no free lunches - 'single speed' demands higher machine torque so higher current

the 'natural' torque is necessarily clipped by 'artificial' current limiting at low rpm
(btw the F1 K machine is operated '8 speed' to avoid this - keeping the revs/voltage up and the torque/current down)
the EM designer will for efficiency like the ICE designer always prefer to limit the variation of rpm and torque
the EM and the ICE aren't so different
the EM won't stall by torque collapse if overloaded by gradient but will fail to move or move backwards unless prevented


btw the quick charge (in the footage linked) was expensive like conventional motor fuel

[914hald]

is it safe to assume that ? .....
the pedal is lifted by a return spring
when it's on the fully lifted position some energy from the car's motion is taken by the 'motor' (and stored)

is this regeneration torque fixed ? (this could be seen as illegal)
or modulated by having a continuous ('seamless') relationship between pedal position and drive/regen torque ?

btw is Mr Nissan Leaf from planet Earth ?

I have been driving in the Jaguar I-pace as a technician, I does also have an E-pedal mode. It is actually very very easy to work with.
If you go hard off the gas, the car brakes fast while regenerating the batterys and turns on brake light when a pre programmed amount of brake force is acquired .

You actually don't have to use your brake pedal after you are getting used to driving with it, while you are getting alot better economy. Same as in the Leaf. There is a e-pedal mode, and a 'normal' mode with brake pedal.

[Tommy Cookers]

.....You actually don't have to use your brake pedal after you are getting used to driving with it, while you are getting alot better economy. Same as in the Leaf. There is a e-pedal mode, and a 'normal' mode with brake pedal.

I thank you for the information .... but ....

you are getting a lot better economy compared with conventional braking only with driving that needs a lot of braking
all braking is wasteful of energy and any car is saving energy by lifting earlier and braking less

my point was that once the EV becomes 'sexy' the e-pedal benefits will justify more disruptive (and inefficient) driving
any EV driver would be well advised to conserve his limited energy by driving to minimise braking of either kind

what is the KE-to-ES-to-KE efficiency ?
Tesla quoted 64% (with their induction EMs)

[subcritical71]

my point was that once the EV becomes 'sexy' the e-pedal benefits will justify more disruptive (and inefficient) driving
any EV driver would be well advised to conserve his limited energy by driving to minimise braking of either kind

I ran across this, but only skimmed over it. Seems to verify your comment (https://www.afdc.energy.gov/uploads/pub ... _style.pdf)

[loner]

The Electric Revolution: Move Aside Lithium, Vanadium Is the New Super-Metal for Bigger Batteries
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... Metal.html

[Just_a_fan]

Big lumps of grid storage are going to be necessary to make best use of renewables. If those stores are just big tanks of liquid in the form of Vanadium redox batteries then that's going to be a nice simple solution (no pun intended). Of course, sourcing the Vanadium will be the issue but once in place, the storage seems to be pretty robust, long lived and relatively straight forward to use/manage.

[loner]

from the same article

By 2025 analysts estimate that 85 percent of all vehicles will incorporate vanadium alloy to reduce their weight and increase fuel efficiency.

and Ford
Ford F-150, Mustang To Feature First Under-Hood Uses Of Graphene

Testing has shown about a 17-percent reduction in noise, a 20-percent improvement in mechanical properties, and a 30-percent improvement in heat-endurance properties for Ford’s graphene-containing foam, vs. the same foam material without any graphene content. And importantly, all of this comes without any weight penalty.

http://fordauthority.com/2018/10/ford-f ... -graphene/

here is the hope for Graphene batteries as well as the Vanadium.

[subcritical71]

from the same article

By 2025 analysts estimate that 85 percent of all vehicles will incorporate vanadium alloy to reduce their weight and increase fuel efficiency.

and Ford
Ford F-150, Mustang To Feature First Under-Hood Uses Of Graphene

Testing has shown about a 17-percent reduction in noise, a 20-percent improvement in mechanical properties, and a 30-percent improvement in heat-endurance properties for Ford’s graphene-containing foam, vs. the same foam material without any graphene content. And importantly, all of this comes without any weight penalty.

http://fordauthority.com/2018/10/ford-f ... -graphene/

here is the hope for Graphene batteries as well as the Vanadium.

Isn't graphene what Ford were using for their radiator mounts, I believe already in the F-150?

I've seen this vanadium before somewhere. It all looks promising, but it still feels like a bit of trying to get investors to bite. The claim is >$500 kW/h, which is 5x what Li-Ion storage is today. By 2020 they expect to be in the $150 kW/h neighborhood... with Li-Ion also seeing steady decrease in cost this will still be about 2x, maybe 3x, Li-Ion storage costs.

Also, they contradict themselves in the article by saying they see that cost per 100 kW/h is lowering and at the same time show that vanadium price itself has increased 33% in a month. I get it, it's an article more for investors, but you can't lower output costs while at the same time increase input costs and stay profitable.

It will be interesting how this all unfolds. Battery tech is definitely going to see some shake ups in the future. I just hope I'm not having to change the vanadium every night in my iPhone

[loner]

I've seen this vanadium before somewhere. It all looks promising, but it still feels like a bit of trying to get investors to bite. The claim is >$500 kW/h, which is 5x what Li-Ion storage is today. By 2020 they expect to be in the $150 kW/h neighborhood... with Li-Ion also seeing steady decrease in cost this will still be about 2x, maybe 3x, Li-Ion storage costs.

perhaps in USA, since i've read its exist in South Africa , Russia and China by 98%
just look at this Chinese massive facility for development 200MW/800MWh vanadium flow battery in Dalian, China,
which to be completed in 2019.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/worlds-l ... gke-power/