Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ispano6]

Well actually it's not that hard, numerical solutions for torsional vibration in reciprocating engines and drivelines have been around since 1920s and have since evolved to the extent that they can capture any relevant behaviour with near perfect accuracy.

Also tire loads are not really relevant since the torsional stiffness of the tire is very low compared to that of the driveline.

Well, actually it's not that near perfect as you purport it to be. There's nothing like simulating dynamic loads than on track testing. Also no point in bringing up McLarens operations as they were unfit to provide Honda a team environment let alone a decent gearbox in time. Imagine if Honda was still inside the Mcl33. It would have been a proper disaster and McLaren would have hidden behind the engine and Honda would be wrongfully the laughing stock.
So enough of this misinformation about Honda not being able to do this or that, seriously.

As I've explained but you seem to have missed the point is that the low tire stiffness decouples the rest of the driveline from whatever happens at the contact patch. The tire is a very effective torsional AV mount and as such for all practical purposes whatever happens at the contact patch has no effect on the torsional vibration of the driveline.

I missed the bits in the press about Honda being able to run dynos with a gearbox - if that is the case they should have all the tools required to diagnose and fix driveline oscillations.

The point is that dyno testing cannot fully substitute track testing, regardless of how you simulate driveline vibration and resonance at the shift point. It might even be slightly different based on the driving style. All teams have the upshift oscillation issues and mappings are constant revised as peak and sustained power is modulated. This is evident in pre-season testing onboard cameras as well as anytime a new PU shakedown on track occurs. Besides, once they got the data, they were able to somewhat resolve a majority of the issue on the dyno, but as we saw with Gasly on track, it was not sufficient.
The previous know how of oscillations mitigation is probably not lost as it is well documented within Honda's archives, but you will always have a new generation of engineers who will need to learn the mistakes themselves to appreciate the wisdom of prior generations and to acknowledge the prior learnings (plus back then it was a Honda gearbox I believe). Some of the Japanese engineers from the Bar Honda days still are involved with Honda or another Formula 1 team and might lend guidance or moral support. In general, this is a new formula, a new development team and a new concept.

[saviour stivala]

By the time the engine formula returned to 3l normally aspirated engines in 1995 engine designers had converged on the V10 arrangement agreeing that it provides as near as possible optimum cylinder size for combustion and thermal efficiency with best compromise of length and cross section for structural properties, this was in spite of problems of resonant tuning and torsional harmonics that arrangement gave them, but by that time (1995) they already had sophisticated computer software to assist them in sorting out the problems of harmonics and electronic control systems to optimize all aspects of operating the engine. I assume that sophistication of today’s computer software (tools) at their disposal are much much improved.
The advancements made in such tools/software can be calculated by the achievements in being able to running the present turbo ICE to such high combustion limits with incredible reliability, but in turn regarding this combustion subject that software control was only made possible by the development of a reliable present in-cylinder knock sensor.

[saviour stivala]

"Honda being able or not to run engine with gearbox on dyno" Quoting from 2017 source: “Those who have visited Honda’s F1 facilities in Japan say that they are mind-blowing in terms of technology available”.

[Godius]

Looking for information about gearbox control I found this Honda R&D article related to gearbox control from 2009:
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_26e.pdf
If you look at page 204 it shows the post shift oscillation producing when upshifting. It looks that this problem is not new, as it already appeared during the V8 era and a mitigation system was proposed. So, why this problem is so difficult to be solved now? Maybe the team that worked in the gearbox in the past is not part of Honda anymore and this problem needs to be addressed in the gearbox control design?

Is Toro Rosso sporting an in-house designed gearbox or do they use the same one as Red Bull Racing? Maybe Honda's testing rig is already more oriented towards Honda power unit + Red Bull Racing gearbox.

[saviour stivala]

“Franz Tost: The plan, there will be more synergies between the teams (RBR-Toro Rosso) this will continue because we have already the gearbox internals and hydraulics system and other parts from Red Bull”.

[etusch]

Is Toro Rosso sporting an in-house designed gearbox or do they use the same one as Red Bull Racing? Maybe Honda's testing rig is already more oriented towards Honda power unit + Red Bull Racing gearbox.

Toro Rosso uses Redbull Gb inner parts with housing made by ToroRosso.

[Alexf1]

Does anyone have an idea what Hondas new combustion process is?

No one knows except Wazari. The last information we had was from 2018 and that was a pre-chamber ignition. Team Wazari had a new take on that and that is fully borne out in 2018 Spec 3.

Thanks! Hope some info about that will surface in the future. I remember an interview with Tanabe where he said something about Honda being on to what new technology Merc and Ferrari had implemented and that they had their own new technology developments which he doubted they would ever have (Honda patented?) Curious if thats spec 3 or coming later

[saviour stivala]

“Does anyone have an idea what Honda combustion process is?”.
Unfortunately the configuration and process of the formula one combustion is one of the very top and one of the highest guarded processes of the manufacturers.

[godlameroso]

“Does anyone have an idea what Honda combustion process is?”.
Unfortunately the configuration and process of the formula one combustion is one of the very top and one of the highest guarded processes of the manufacturers.

Why the secrecy if there is nothing special or unique aside from in cylinder sensors, that allow them to run lean or closer to stoich? At least according to you.

[PlatinumZealot]

From knowledge we know they are lean. Lambda 1.5 or so. To get efficiency to go up you need all that extra air to capture the heat. Can't waste it on the walls or thru the exhaust valves.

[Sieper]

From Motorsport.com (I believe originally Italia) now in English

"The Japanese technicians have evaluated the gap that separates them from the Mercedes-Ferrari tandem in a window that goes from one to two percent (as regards the performance in the race), which in power translates into about 20 horses. On the other hand, the gap in qualifying is still greater, a context in which Honda still has no more power than its competitors.

This is now the next target at Sakura's headquarters, and work is already under way. There should be no further steps in the four races missing at the end of the World Cup, but it is whispering of an evolution that should be brought to the track in the Abu Dhabi tests, the day after the last seasonal Grand Prix."

[Bill]

They still a new battery in the works should come in America

[dren]

Does anyone have an idea what Hondas new combustion process is?

No one knows except Wazari. The last information we had was from 2018 and that was a pre-chamber ignition. Team Wazari had a new take on that and that is fully borne out in 2018 Spec 3.

I don't remember where I read it, so take it as pure speculation, but back when Honda was having performance issues with Mclaren, Mclaren (and FIA too maybe?) were trying to get Mercedes to come in and help Honda. Mercedes was willing but Honda was not because they didn't want to divulge what they were working on. Perhaps this is what they were working on. It's certainly some form of lean burn, but exactly how they are doing it we don't know. We do know their PU last year had a pre-chamber like ignition.

[saviour stivala]

Does anyone have an idea what Hondas new combustion process is?

No one knows except Wazari. The last information we had was from 2018 and that was a pre-chamber ignition. Team Wazari had a new take on that and that is fully borne out in 2018 Spec 3.

I don't remember where I read it, so take it as pure speculation, but back when Honda was having performance issues with Mclaren, Mclaren (and FIA too maybe?) were trying to get Mercedes to come in and help Honda. Mercedes was willing but Honda was not because they didn't want to divulge what they were working on. Perhaps this is what they were working on. It's certainly some form of lean burn, but exactly how they are doing it we don't know. We do know their PU last year had a pre-chamber like ignition.

A pre-combustion chamber system on a 10500RPM max power speed formula 1 engine?.

[Bill]

Perhaps Mclaren should ask Mercedes to help them with their chassis, the premise that your competitor will offer some form of "help " is pure madness