Merc, Lewis, and a plea for regulation sanity

[strad]

You're saying carbon fiber brakes are not better at stopping than steel?
I think you're wrong on that one. Yes downforce helps but the stopping power of CF is much higher. The operating temps are much higher and stopping power I believe is inertia converted to heat.

[Phil]

Isnt the truth somewhere in the middle?

If braking is limited by traction/grip, the higher that limit is (due to downforce), the more you require stronger brakes (more force).

Lower the traction by reducing downforce and lesser stopping power is required to hit the traction limit.

More or less force can be achieved by better materials or smaller/larger diameter of the discs and brakes.

[zac510]

It doesn't matter anyway - all teams will have brakes that are of equal or very similar performance anyway so the effect of the change of material will be negated.

I suspect the underlying desire for these kind of rule changes is a desire for the driver to make more mistakes (as we get in a wet race). The number of cylinders, amount of electricity, material of brakes is all largely irrelevant, as long as the driver makes mistakes more frequently.

But I'm cautious - when they changed the start clutch rules a few years ago, the F1 public showed themselves to be quite intolerant of that change, because it appeared that the driver didn't have enough control *not* to cause the mistake. The driver has to appear they had the opportunity not to make the mistake.

[ScottB]

Thing is, if you decide that the domination of Mercedes needs to end, and you’re going to achieve that by changing the rules, how exactly would you achieve that?

When the speed of a car is down to a single gimmick, like, say, a Double Diffuser, you can ban that, and it’ll probably have an effect. Merc aren’t doing one such obvious thing that their competition isn’t. So, you make sweeping changes to the regs, because if Merc are just doing a generally good job, let’s mess with it, and hope they don’t do as well with the new rules...

But then you’re hoping that other teams do a better job. Based on what? That’s basically what we went through going into 2017, and you even had the added impact of banning the fancy suspension that was a major Merc strength, and where did we end up? New front wing regs next year, are we takings bets on Mercedes screwing that change up?

The only reliable way to reign Mercedes in would be artificially; ballast penalties, reduced wind tunnel time, somehow get rid of some of their technical brains. Essentially creating penalties for being successful. It’s just not feasible. I’m not convinced Ferrari’s early 00’s domination was somehow ended by reg changes either, it wasn’t, the people who masterminded it either retired, moved on or were replaced, and the team ended up weaker relative to the competition, as new ‘stars’ emerged elsewhere. Rule changes in of themselves didn’t defeat them, the teams ability to react to changes degraded relative to their rivals. This will happen to Mercedes in the end too, and a new crop of guys will come to the fore at another team and become the new dominant power to be reckoned with.

[strad]

You are right that the limiting factor without anti lock is grip and that is affected by downforce.
I'm not sure where the trade off between downforce and tire grip is though.

[Just_a_fan]

I’m not convinced Ferrari’s early 00’s domination was somehow ended by reg changes either, it wasn’t,

Yeah, it was. The single biggest factor was changes in the tyre regulations. 2005 saw the banning of tyre changes at pit stops. Ferrari's dominance had in part been down to having bespoke tyres from Bridgestone, designed to last for a certain number of laps between pit stops and to be pushed hard for those laps. The change totally screwed Ferrari and the only time they won was at the infamous Indy race where MIchelin running teams pulled out.

[ScottB]

I’m not convinced Ferrari’s early 00’s domination was somehow ended by reg changes either, it wasn’t,

Yeah, it was. The single biggest factor was changes in the tyre regulations. 2005 saw the banning of tyre changes at pit stops. Ferrari's dominance had in part been down to having bespoke tyres from Bridgestone, designed to last for a certain number of laps between pit stops and to be pushed hard for those laps. The change totally screwed Ferrari and the only time they won was at the infamous Indy race where MIchelin running teams pulled out.

But then it was still a gamble, in this case a change of tyre rules, Michelin did a better job than Bridgestone, but that was not a ‘guaranteed’ consequence.

My point is, changing rules to slow a team down is risky at best, and by no means guaranteed to succeed. In this case, the tyre change resulted in a ‘bad’ year, then won 9 races in ‘06, before another title in ‘07. So basically a year long blip for all the effort, before losing Costa, Byrne, Todt, Brawn et all sent them into the drought they’re still in...

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

The simplest way to impact Mercedes' dominance is to maintain the rules the same and let everyone catch up. Changing the rules benefits the teams with the best organisation and the most resources. I don't see how fiddling the regulations won't just emphasise their superiority and increase the gap.

[Jolle]

The simplest way to impact Mercedes' dominance is to maintain the rules the same and let everyone catch up. Changing the rules benefits the teams with the best organisation and the most resources. I don't see how fiddling the regulations won't just emphasise their superiority and increase the gap.

Plus, how more difficult you make it for the drivers (take away tire warmers, data, etc etc) the bigger the gaps between drivers who can work with unpredictable circumstances like Hamilton and the rest will be.

by the way, not many people realise this, but F1 in general never been this close. "in the good old days" the top team would set the whole field on a lap, or more.

[Just_a_fan]

Whilst the field is closer than in the past - qualifying demonstrates that - the team's all run to conserve tyres, PUs and gearboxes so lapping the field is less likely anyway.

[PlatinumZealot]

You're saying carbon fiber brakes are not better at stopping than steel?
I think you're wrong on that one. Yes downforce helps but the stopping power of CF is much higher. The operating temps are much higher and stopping power I believe is inertia converted to heat.

The tyres and weight tell you how hard you can stop.
Steel brakes won't have a disadvantage in stopping once you apply enough clamping force and keep them cool which is not hard to do. The teams will find some sort of special alloy to take away the oxidation and warping.
The other big disadvantage of steel is the weight is more and the life is less than carbon. But if it were in F1 the stopping distances wouldn't increase much if you adjust for weight. And wouldn't you be giving Hamilton more advantage anyway?

[PlatinumZealot]

My two cents on this: To end Mercedes domination you have to pry away the engineers. Pay them a king's salary to join the other teams. Not sure how this is going to happen. Politics perhaps? Rule changes only allowing big name engineers to work for two more years at a team that just won the championship?

[GPR-A]

My two cents on this: To end Mercedes domination you have to pry away the engineers. Pay them a king's salary to join the other teams. Not sure how this is going to happen. Politics perhaps? Rule changes only allowing big name engineers to work for two more years at a team that just won the championship?

Do we, as an interested public, know who their engineers are? Does the teams know who the STAR PERFORMERS in their respective departments are? Beyond the Technical/Engineering directors? I don't know what Politics you are referring to. Let me know if I am wrong, but I am reading your post to be, destroying a team to enable competition? Why not others understand what Mercedes is doing and emulate and build that kind of culture and structure?

When was the last time Dr. Zetche came out speaking to public/media about the racing team? Did he ever interfere or spoke of changes he wanted to implement in the team from 2010 to 2012, when Merc was struggling? How often Norbert Haug and Brawn fought for controlling the power in that period?

When was the last time we heard Toto and Lauda quarreling and the Austrian/German media having a field day with the juicy news?

Brawn left (who laid this foundation), Bob Bell left, Paddy Lowe left and now Aldo Costa is retiring. None of these guys leaving/retiring seems to have stopped the Mercedes juggernaut. I have always been telling that, the strength is in the internal depth and NOT in what is visible to the naked eye from the outside. It's not these Director level guys who design the cars, but those in the factory THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

Most importantly, would we be discussing this, if their star driver didn't drive the way he did last year and this? Mercedes would have most likely lost both championships without him in these two years. We would probably be discussing how Ferrari have turned it around and how they are going to rule the world once again like in 2000s.

[turbof1]

My two cents on this: To end Mercedes domination you have to pry away the engineers. Pay them a king's salary to join the other teams. Not sure how this is going to happen. Politics perhaps? Rule changes only allowing big name engineers to work for two more years at a team that just won the championship?

Do we, as an interested public, know who their engineers are? Does the teams know who the STAR PERFORMERS in their respective departments are? Beyond the Technical/Engineering directors? I don't know what Politics you are referring to. Let me know if I am wrong, but I am reading your post to be, destroying a team to enable competition? Why not others understand what Mercedes is doing and emulate and build that kind of culture and structure?

When was the last time Dr. Zetche came out speaking to public/media about the racing team? Did he ever interfere or spoke of changes he wanted to implement in the team from 2010 to 2012, when Merc was struggling? How often Norbert Haug and Brawn fought for controlling the power in that period?

When was the last time we heard Toto and Lauda quarreling and the Austrian/German media having a field day with the juicy news?

Brawn left (who laid this foundation), Bob Bell left, Paddy Lowe left and now Aldo Costa is retiring. None of these guys leaving/retiring seems to have stopped the Mercedes juggernaut. I have always been telling that, the strength is in the internal depth and NOT in what is visible to the naked eye from the outside. It's not these Director level guys who design the cars, but those in the factory THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

Most importantly, would we be discussing this, if their star driver didn't drive the way he did last year and this? Mercedes would have most likely lost both championships without him in these two years. We would probably be discussing how Ferrari have turned it around and how they are going to rule the world once again like in 2000s.

Well, it always depends who would be there instead of Hamilton. I agree Bottas would probably not have beaten Vettel, although we neither know if Bottas truly likes the car the way it is now, being probably slightly more adjusted for Hamilton (not to take credit away from Hamilton, he did a fantastic job).

Also yes, Mercedes is a well-oiled machine not depending on one single corner stone. If you have a strong management structure in place, you can replace pretty much anybody in the chain as long as the replacement has the correct profile for the position. There are risks associated however, when a particular way of thinking becomes too rigid and it's difficult to switch to new concepts, although determination can overcome that.

Dialing it back to the topic at hand: I think a team like Mercedes can struck out at regulation changes, but they have to be significant enough. Even then it's probably a matter of time before the juggernaut turns it around. The biggest thing that can hurt Mercedes, is a budget cap.

[Just_a_fan]

The biggest thing that can hurt Mercedes, is a budget cap.

That's probably true, not only of Mercedes but also Ferrari and RedBull.

Mercedes, for example, run their factory 24/7 and the place is open and doing work every day of the year except Christmas Day and during the two week FIA-enforced shut down. I would guess that the other two would be similar.

We also know that there is a lot of back-in-the-factory stuff going on during race weekends - Mercedes (and no doubt others) has a team of people listening to each of the other teams' radio calls. These tend to be volunteers on industrial placements etc. so the cost of that is low but they still need the infrastructure in place. There are engineers monitoring stuff too, just as at the track. All of these little details go towards making the team what it is.