Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[gandharva]

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/la-po ... l/3195007/

The Japanese technicians were convinced that they had only brought about twenty horses from Mercedes and Ferrari in race configuration. A step forward that gives hope to Red Bull and leaves a bitter taste in McLaren's mouth.

The latest evolution of the Honda power unit, which completed its first full race weekend at Suzuka, confirmed a decisive step forward in performance. The Japanese technicians are carrying out the engine development as planned, and the third evolution of 2018 has respected the plans of the Japanese engineers. The leap forward was particularly appreciated by Red Bull, who will be using the Honda power unit next year, taking important words from Christian Horner.

"We are impressed by the commitment and determination that Honda has confirmed with steps forward that are in front of everyone - commented the team principal of Red Bull - beyond the current performance, we and Honda share the ultimate goal, which is to return to fight for the highest goals. What we see today is an excellent basis on which to start work in view of 2019".

The Japanese technicians have assessed the gap between them and the Mercedes-Ferrari tandem in a window ranging from one to two percent (in terms of race performance), which in power translates into about 20 horsepower. On the other hand, the gap in qualification is even greater, a context in which Honda does not yet have at its disposal a plus of power equivalent to the competition.

This is now the next target at the Sakura headquarters, and work is already underway. There should be no further steps in the four missing races at the end of the World Championship, but there is a whisper of an evolution that should be brought to the track in the tests of Abu Dhabi, the day after the last Grand Prix of the season.
McLaren's autogoal

If the plans are respected, and if even the reliability front will conclude a very demanding chase on the Ferrari and Mercedes competition, Red Bull could enter by right in the fight for the 2019 title. For three years Honda has been receiving very strong criticism from McLaren, and in many cases it was a question of justified judgements. But the divorce that came at the end of last season has also brought to light other evaluations.

Without the pressures to which they were subjected in the McLaren period, and with a very good communication born with the technicians of Toro Rosso, the Japanese technicians have worked in an atmosphere of greater serenity, being able to make the necessary mistakes and learning from them without undergoing constant trials.

The results have been seen, while at McLaren they have emerged of the great limits in the construction of the single-seater, an aspect that probably for years has been hidden more or less deliberately by an uncompetitive power unit. The Honda engine was undoubtedly the last of the group, but the "best chassis" hypothesised by McLaren technicians and some British enthusiasts was not such, as emerged after the transition to the Renault power unit.
Good news for Formula 1

If in 2019 the good premises of the eve will be confirmed, Formula 1 could find itself with three forces on the field able to run for the World Title, and it would be fantastic news for all fans but also for those who run the Circus. In fact, Honda is the only added value that has led to the transition (at the end of 2013) from aspirated engines to hybrids, as Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault were already present at the time of the V8.

The huge expenses faced with the power unit regulation, years of Mercedes domination that have put a strain on the involvement of fans, and especially the introduction of a technical regulation that can discourage the interest of other manufacturers, have had on the other side of the scale only the entry into Formula 1 of a new manufacturer: Honda. For the rest, apart from advertising postcards for the promotion of a hybrid that has little to do with series production, there have been no tangible benefits from the transition to V6 hybrids.

For this reason, the growth of the Japanese project takes on particular significance throughout Formula 1, in the hope that it will pass an inviting signal also to other manufacturers, who precisely in the difficulties encountered initially by Honda, have seen a valid reason to stay at the window avoiding the risk of bad figures in the worldvision in the Championship number one in the world.

[HPD]

Also, as an example, although oscillation (resonance) was within the assumption to some extent, there was also that it was slightly larger than I thought.
In addition, the calibration was still necessary.
Calibration is to adjust so as to maintain the combustion more stable in a word.
As PU makes a considerable transient movement, such as when shifting, tuning will be necessary to ensure stability of combustion."
What is different from last year is that the reliability has improved this year, the PU's own pocket has become wider, or the use area has become wider, so that various trials can be done.
https://ja.hondaracingf1.com/insights/r ... eview.html

[63l8qrrfy6]

Well, actually it's not that near perfect as you purport it to be. There's nothing like simulating dynamic loads than on track testing. Also no point in bringing up McLarens operations as they were unfit to provide Honda a team environment let alone a decent gearbox in time. Imagine if Honda was still inside the Mcl33. It would have been a proper disaster and McLaren would have hidden behind the engine and Honda would be wrongfully the laughing stock.
So enough of this misinformation about Honda not being able to do this or that, seriously.

As I've explained but you seem to have missed the point is that the low tire stiffness decouples the rest of the driveline from whatever happens at the contact patch. The tire is a very effective torsional AV mount and as such for all practical purposes whatever happens at the contact patch has no effect on the torsional vibration of the driveline.

I missed the bits in the press about Honda being able to run dynos with a gearbox - if that is the case they should have all the tools required to diagnose and fix driveline oscillations.

The point is that dyno testing cannot fully substitute track testing, regardless of how you simulate driveline vibration and resonance at the shift point. It might even be slightly different based on the driving style. All teams have the upshift oscillation issues and mappings are constant revised as peak and sustained power is modulated. This is evident in pre-season testing onboard cameras as well as anytime a new PU shakedown on track occurs. Besides, once they got the data, they were able to somewhat resolve a majority of the issue on the dyno, but as we saw with Gasly on track, it was not sufficient.
The previous know how of oscillations mitigation is probably not lost as it is well documented within Honda's archives, but you will always have a new generation of engineers who will need to learn the mistakes themselves to appreciate the wisdom of prior generations and to acknowledge the prior learnings (plus back then it was a Honda gearbox I believe). Some of the Japanese engineers from the Bar Honda days still are involved with Honda or another Formula 1 team and might lend guidance or moral support. In general, this is a new formula, a new development team and a new concept.

Unless you have a specific argument on why torsional behaviour can't be reproduced on a dyno you can't make a point.

Let me rephrase one more time:
1 - the forcing function causing torsional excitations is produced by 2 main sources: the cylinder pressure profile and the inertia sync during gearshifts - both of which are easily reproduced on a dyno.
2 - the system response to the forcing functions is dictated by the inertia, stiffness and damping of the driveline. Again this is also easily reproduced on a dyno.
3 - The driving style argument does not hold either. Teams use DiL to drive the dyno and can also replay the exact relevant driver inputs on a transient dyno.

[Wouter]

https://ja.hondaracingf1.com/insights/r ... eview.html

Another quote from this Japanese article.

Brendon Hartley continued to run smoothly from the first day of the Grand Prix of Japan, but Pierre Gasly suffered several troubles and could not run satisfactorily. However, in qualifying, the two played the best performances and the team as a whole named 6th and 7th got the best result this season.

I asume that they both use the same spec engine and gearbox.
Why has Hartley no problems? Something wrong with Gasly's engine or gearbox? Beacause another setup of the car?

[hurril]

As I've explained but you seem to have missed the point is that the low tire stiffness decouples the rest of the driveline from whatever happens at the contact patch. The tire is a very effective torsional AV mount and as such for all practical purposes whatever happens at the contact patch has no effect on the torsional vibration of the driveline.

I missed the bits in the press about Honda being able to run dynos with a gearbox - if that is the case they should have all the tools required to diagnose and fix driveline oscillations.

The point is that dyno testing cannot fully substitute track testing, regardless of how you simulate driveline vibration and resonance at the shift point. It might even be slightly different based on the driving style. All teams have the upshift oscillation issues and mappings are constant revised as peak and sustained power is modulated. This is evident in pre-season testing onboard cameras as well as anytime a new PU shakedown on track occurs. Besides, once they got the data, they were able to somewhat resolve a majority of the issue on the dyno, but as we saw with Gasly on track, it was not sufficient.
The previous know how of oscillations mitigation is probably not lost as it is well documented within Honda's archives, but you will always have a new generation of engineers who will need to learn the mistakes themselves to appreciate the wisdom of prior generations and to acknowledge the prior learnings (plus back then it was a Honda gearbox I believe). Some of the Japanese engineers from the Bar Honda days still are involved with Honda or another Formula 1 team and might lend guidance or moral support. In general, this is a new formula, a new development team and a new concept.

Unless you have a specific argument on why torsional behaviour can't be reproduced on a dyno you can't make a point.

Let me rephrase one more time:
1 - the forcing function causing torsional excitations is produced by 2 main sources: the cylinder pressure profile and the inertia sync during gearshifts - both of which are easily reproduced on a dyno.
2 - the system response to the forcing functions is dictated by the inertia, stiffness and damping of the driveline. Again this is also easily reproduced on a dyno.
3 - The driving style argument does not hold either. Teams use DiL to drive the dyno and can also replay the exact relevant driver inputs on a transient dyno.

What conclusion do you draw from the facts then?

[PlatinumZealot]

Mudflap forgot about McLaren's problems in 2016?!! Oil tank and gearbox problems... Turbo and mguh vibrations.. Overheating.. The works..
I thought it was common knowledge since then that Dyno cannot simulate everything on the track?

[hurril]

Mudflap forgot about McLaren's problems in 2016?!! Oil tank and gearbox problems... Turbo and mguh vibrations.. Overheating.. The works..
I thought it was common knowledge since then that Dyno cannot simulate everything on the track?

And another thing: what is he saying about Hondas competence? If only they'd have paid attention to Mudflap, they'd be killing it? I mean, is he claiming that they are lying about what's going on or that they are incompetent?

[63l8qrrfy6]

PZ we've been talking about torsional vibration specifically. Yes, there are many other characteristics that can't be replicated on the dyno, I agree (even though oil tank behaviour can be simulated on so called rodeo rigs and turbos are usually ran on gas stands which are adequate for assessing the rotordynamic behaviour).

I don't know what conclusions to draw from this issue other than it is something that should have been spotted before the car ran at the track. It is definitely an integration issue so the responsibility lies with both Honda and TR.
All in all it is probably a fairly minor problem than has been resolved without any hardware changes and minor performance implications.

[saviour stivala]

Perhaps Mclaren should ask Mercedes to help them with their chassis, the premise that your competitor will offer some form of "help " is pure madness

'mercedes helping Honda!" i have read that too when it was first pushed-out and my reaction was that Piece of media push-out was the height of total madness had been reached in formula 1 reporting.

[PhillipM]

A problem they also had with Mclaren. A problem which Merc also had some of with it's new PU which compromised it shifting cleanly until the refined it.
So it's evidently not as clear cut as plugging some numbers in software and getting perfect results.

[Tommy Cookers]

PZ we've been talking about torsional vibration specifically. .......

isn't the situation mainly due to the frequency of modulation of clutch torque ?- and the effect of modulation on the PU ?
the clutch being a stiff spring and mass there is a limit to its frequency response

[ispano6]

There didn't seem to be any mechanical changes required for Gasly's FIA mandated detune so the solution apparently is mapping related. As such, perhaps it is a stopgap solution that requires more refining and eventual hardware changes.

I don't know enough about the nature of the oscillations on track to say what the issue was aside from the fluttering sound that is audible from the onboard but it's such a familiar and prevalent sound, even when I drive on the simulator. I wonder if Honda's dyno engineers were actually able to replicate and reproduce those same oscillations on the dyno and not just work on mapping solutions based on simulation of race data. Tanabe-san seemed pretty confident of the fix which gives me hope that they at least understood the issue enough to solve it with mappings.
Pierre also mentioned the new spec3 unit's drivability is worse, as is the low speed torque delivery as noted by several here and also Honda staff. The dyno might be able to replay back all the throttle inputs from the telemetry but I kind of doubt the dyno is dynamic enough to provide feedback on torque delivery and drivability. I do believe driving style and driver input matter, especially when in the heat of the moment and trying to push.

[wagnerrbezerra]

https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/16/hon ... out-spent/

“This season we were not as quick in the development as we would have wanted to,” said Yamamoto. “However, recently, everything has been much better, especially regarding the combustion chamber. We have upgraded it, and it’s finally complete, and very successfully complete.”

The spec three power unit was introduced in Russia but not raced as Honda had to address calibration problems. These were not entirely fixed in time for the race in Japan, where the team had to revert to an earlier configuration shortly before the race.

[Bandit1216]

Hello

Is there anyone who wants to comment on the inter cooler?

http://f1i.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/ ... -honda.jpg

The "black box" on which the purple (red earlier this year) connectors are situated is deemed "air box" several times.

I think this is a water to air inter cooler and when I'm correct, only Renault doesn't use this technique now. One can see 2 air inlets. In earlier pictures one can see the piping from compressor to the "box". On the other side of the box you see 4 pipes coming out where the yellow anodized alu is. I'm wondering whether this is 4 of the 6 inlet "manifold" pipes to the cylinders and one can just not see the other 2, which are probably underneath. Or perhaps these 4 pipes are water inlet/outlet of the inter cooler, and the 6 inlet manifold pipes are not visible and are underneath the black box, probably with the MGU-H in the middle off these six pipes.

Where are the inlet and outlet to cooling water of the engines situated anyway?

Any thoughts on this?

[dren]

That box is most likely the variable intake length system. It's very similar to what Mercedes uses.