Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

Mahle openly talked about using an adapted version of TJI for F1 regulations back in 2016. Mark Hughes wrote a piece about how they got around the single injector rule...


https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ine-update

"How they got around the single injector role" Yes you are correct. that was after his attention was drawn to the rule stipulating "direct injection" must be used, and in turn the Mahle TJI pre-combustion system came about a week after pushing out the use of HCCI combustion system. all this happened something like 2 years ago.

You will find that the "Single Injector" rule is the thing that stopped them putting the injector in the pre-chamber, not the "Direct Injection" rule. In Diesel engines, the term "direct injection" is used to differentiate from "pre-chamber" injection. This is not the intent of the F1 rule which is seeks only to differentiate between "direct injection" and "port injection".

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it. although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

[Snorked]

Honda-RA618H


Honda-RA617H

[tcooper27]

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it. although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

Bottom line is there's a mountain of evidence from the teams and manufacturers stating the use of pre-chambers in F1. If you have any concrete evidence to back up your "beliefs" and "opinions" please post them. Otherwise nobody cares.

[Sieper]

bigger intercooler, more room for the exhaust manifold, seperately packed pipes, being allowed more (equal) room to run. etc. All indications of compromising more the aero but allowing for more all out HP. Bigger intake air intube, with a more gradual curve.

[subcritical71]

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it. although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

Where is the term 'direct injection' defined in the rules? I'll give you a hint, it's not. All I could find was this statement which says nothing about being directly injected into the combustion chamber it is saying injector (vs. injection). Makes a big difference. A pre-chamber is still between the intake and exhaust valves. Anyway it's a moot point, Honda have said they use it and acknowledged they were the last team to implement it.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

[saviour stivala]

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it. although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

Where is the term 'direct injection' defined in the rules? I'll give you a hint, it's not. All I could find was this statement which says nothing about being directly injected into the combustion chamber it is saying injector (vs. injection). Makes a big difference. A pre-chamber is still between the intake and exhaust valves. Anyway it's a moot point, Honda have said they use it and acknowledged they were the last team to implement it.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

Will greatly appreciate it if you or anybody else can quote me anybody officially from Honda or any of the other three manufacturers stating or saying what combustion technology type or combustion shape/design they are using.

[hollus]

saviour stivala: sources to proof of prechamber and jet ignition have been pointed to you repeatedly. Henry suggested looking in page 845 of this very thread. The article he meant is actually in page 844: viewtopic.php?p=733053#p733053. It is in japanese, but some pics speak for themselves. Then in page 845, user hasika provided a translation of some key passages:

Just part of the artcle.

·Because its a racing engine,so the weight and centre of gravity is very important.The RA617H is good in this area.As the reliability improves during the season,the weight increased too.From this point,The RA616H is too heavy and didnt meet ours target .

·The compressor and turbine was in the V bank in RA616H,but the RA617H put the compressor and turbine out of the V,and only MGU-H in the V bank.We can make the compressor bigger and it give us more freedom to design the intake system.With both compressor,turbine and MGU-H in the V bank in RA616H,its hard to place the VIS.But only MGU-H in the V bank in the RA617H,so we can make it simple.The intake system was what it should be in 2017.

·But to get the compressor and turbine out of the V,we found some new problems.To avoid the contact with compressor,we had to design a complex shape for the oil tank.The design it not good enough,the oil will go into the intake.And finally leads to the MGU-H issues.The shape of oil tank and compressor caused the MGU-H issues.

·The RA617H has the Jet Ignition technology as the other three manufacturer.The compression ratio of RA617H incresed 2 higher than RA615H,and 1 higher than RA616H.Its also the reason why we put the compressor out of the V and make it bigger.But how can we keep the A/F in the pre-chamber and still have higher homozygosity(i dont know much about technology things so i dont know how to translate the word 均質性,) in the main combustion chamber. We tried many palces to put injectors in,but we think the layout now is the best.

·The RA617H has less power than RA616H final SPEC at the start of the season,before we introdued the first upgrade.So its a minus start for sure,but the final SPEC has much more power than RA616H. I think we finally started to understand the Jet Ignition technology and we will do more things in the area from now.

·As the rules set the MGU-K can only send 2MJ to ES and the MGU-K can release 4MJ as most in a lap.But there is no limitation for the MGU-H.So we tried extraharvest technology.First,we harvest more energy from the MGU-K,more than 2MJ,then we send 2MJ to the ES from the MGU-K,the rest of the energy will be sent to the ES thourgh MGU-H.As we had many reliability issues with MGU-H this season,so we didnt find good timing to introduce it.We finally tested it in the Belgium GP and we begin to introduce the technology from Monza.

The bolding is mine.

If you are going to continue to argue against everyone else, the onus in on you to read what has been written before, if only out of respect to the other parties in the discussion. This thread is a veritable tour de force in extracting and interpreting information on the Honda engine. It is long, but it is worth it, a good starting point would be page 844 as linked above.

And it you are going to complain about the moderators deleting some of your posts, I might suggest that you start using the private message (PM) system, just like every other user does. Do you realize that most of the mods, me included, have no way to talk to you if you do not use the PM system?

[trinidefender]

"How they got around the single injector role" Yes you are correct. that was after his attention was drawn to the rule stipulating "direct injection" must be used, and in turn the Mahle TJI pre-combustion system came about a week after pushing out the use of HCCI combustion system. all this happened something like 2 years ago.

You will find that the "Single Injector" rule is the thing that stopped them putting the injector in the pre-chamber, not the "Direct Injection" rule. In Diesel engines, the term "direct injection" is used to differentiate from "pre-chamber" injection. This is not the intent of the F1 rule which is seeks only to differentiate between "direct injection" and "port injection".

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it. although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

And what particularly about this combustion process doesn't allow it to function at a high rpm? If anything the flame jets coming out of the pre-combustion chamber allow faster combustion therefore, if anything, allowing faster engine speeds.

[subcritical71]

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it. although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

Where is the term 'direct injection' defined in the rules? I'll give you a hint, it's not. All I could find was this statement which says nothing about being directly injected into the combustion chamber it is saying injector (vs. injection). Makes a big difference. A pre-chamber is still between the intake and exhaust valves. Anyway it's a moot point, Honda have said they use it and acknowledged they were the last team to implement it.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

Will greatly appreciate it if you or anybody else can quote me anybody officially from Honda or any of the other three manufacturers stating or saying what combustion technology type or combustion shape/design they are using.

Sorry, I thought you had said you read the article on page 845 of this thread. If you would do that your questions would be answered, again.

[Brake Horse Power]

Honda-RA618H


Honda-RA617H

Is the rocker cover under a steeper angle than last years engine? Looking at the coils etc.. Makes me wonder of the spark plug + pre-chamber is off-center now? -> could be just misleading because of a slightly different camera angle, but I noticed it on a different picture too...

[63l8qrrfy6]

PZ we've been talking about torsional vibration specifically. .......

isn't the situation mainly due to the frequency of modulation of clutch torque ?- and the effect of modulation on the PU ?
the clutch being a stiff spring and mass there is a limit to its frequency response

Sorry, not quite sure what the question is ?

Post shift oscillation is due to the high torque (effectively a shock load since its duration is very short compared to the period of the system) caused by synchronizing the inertia of the engine to that of the gearbox. The frequency of the oscillation is mainly the first torsional mode of the driveline while the amplitude is of course a function of the torque (which in turn is limited by the torque capacity of the clutch), damping and stiffness (since all of the kinetic energy not dissipated by damping is converted to elastic energy).

Since the clutch dictates the maximum torque as well as being a large source of damping, controlling its preload by means of a hydraulic linear actuator is the main tool for mitigating post shift oscillations.

In theory I think there is an optimum preload for the initial torque spike (a compromise between the loss of performance due to slippage and maximum torque allowed) followed by a second preload setting for maximum damping of subsequent oscillations. In practice I think a single preload setting is used throughout the shift.

[gruntguru]

Because i have my own reasons/believes (technical) like you might have.

So did you read the Honda release that Henry linked for you - the one that shows pictures of a pre-chamber?

. . . . Are you by any chance trying to say that pre-chamber in that picture is what Honda are using on their F1 engine? . . . . .

No but (for me at least) it confirms that Honda are using a pre-chamber.

[gruntguru]

"How they got around the single injector role" Yes you are correct. that was after his attention was drawn to the rule stipulating "direct injection" must be used, and in turn the Mahle TJI pre-combustion system came about a week after pushing out the use of HCCI combustion system. all this happened something like 2 years ago.

You will find that the "Single Injector" rule is the thing that stopped them putting the injector in the pre-chamber, not the "Direct Injection" rule. In Diesel engines, the term "direct injection" is used to differentiate from "pre-chamber" injection. This is not the intent of the F1 rule which is seeks only to differentiate between "direct injection" and "port injection".

The 'term' direct injection means the fuel is injected direct in the combustion chamber, the space above the piston, a pre-combustion chamber is a space outside of the combustion chamber and connected to it.

At the risk of repeating myself - yes you have quoted the traditional DIESEL definition. In petrol engines "Direct Injection" has come to mean "injection into the combustion space" and the pre-chamber is part of the combustion space. When the FIA wrote the rule they did not anticipate the application of TJI - they only intended to eliminate port injection and focus on DI which was the latest trend in EFI.

although pre-combustion system has been around for 100 years, and has been realised in a variety of approaches and products, starting with the 2-stroke Ricardo dolphin, in my personal personal techincal opinion it is not conductive of a high speed formula 1 engine designed to run at a max power speed of 10500 PM.

If you study and understand TJI you will realise that it is a very high speed combustion system - so fast that it has to be optimised at the prototype stage to avoid excessively high pressure rise.

[gandharva]

So Helmut Marko said in an interview yesterday that Honda is 0.6 infront of Renault in quali trim and 0.1 in race trim with current Austin spec.

[Bill]

No that's not what he said, 6 tenth comes from Horner , Marko said Honda was ahead of Renault both in quali and race ,if u going to quote someone don't twist the fact to suit your own prejudice, I know the salt is real but really. When Honda was with mclaren their fans will always say Honda are behind merc but 1 second regardless of continuous pu upgrades