Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sieper]

if he said it yesterday (Monday) it might be a new statement that provides more insight. Gandharva, can you provide us with a link to the interview if you have it?

[Wouter]

So Helmut Marko said in an interview yesterday that Honda is 0.6 infront of Renault in quali trim and 0.1 in race trim with current Austin spec.

I would also like to have a link, like @Sieper asked. Could you post a link please? The language doesn't matter. Thanks.

[Hino]

Bad news with Honda's Spec 3 PU, it has poor reliability. Gasly's ICE was heavily damaged from the Japanese GP due to the oscillations and Hartley's ICE needed a fix which I believe Honda did not want to take a risk in running again for the USGP, so they obviously decided to replace PU's on both cars.

As a result of inspection of specification 3 used at the 17th round · Japanese GP, big damage was found in ICE (engine main body) of Gasly's car which had to run with inadequate setup. It was not a situation where we could run out of the remaining four races, but the ICE of Hartley car turned out to be in a condition requiring countermeasure.

　For that reason, we had to prepare an ICE that improved durability in the 18th race · American GP, ​​and we decided to start with the last row grid with two cars.

　Technical director Toyoharu Tanabe of Honda explains like this.

"I made a minor change to ICE. The basic specifications are the same and added to improve the reliability. While I used it in the race of the Japanese Grand Prix and some bench test It is a form that puts a hand into the part where there was a concern, it is attributable to it including the influence that used to avoid the oscillation (rotation of the rotation number) in the race.The Gasly's PU had more damage than I expected and I did not want to race with it in the future. "

　Thus, countermeasures that can be said as "specification 3 reform" were brought in to the US GP, and in actual driving "got smoother like before specification 2" (Guthrie) and the drivers gave a good rating.

Its seems that Spec 3 was initially designed to last 6 race weekends but, at the moment the ICE suffers too much damage.

"Initially, of course, it was designed to be able to last 6 races in full from the 16th round · Russian Grand Prix to the final race. However, according to Honda officials, "When you actually run, spec damage 3 is more than expected and mileage is pretty tough."

Honda seem to aggressive with running Spec 3 and learning from the damage incurred to better understand on a fix and increase reliability.

Of course, the spec 3 that was introduced at this point in the end of the season is a pilot version of the next season, and the final round of the season for Toro Rosso Honda is also a real test test position.

"If it gets broken, that break becomes plenty of learning."

About spec 3, one developer of Honda says so.

Although the current specification 3 revamp keeps only a few races, by making full use of what we learned here, further power increase, thoroughly ensure lifespan and reliability in the next season. That is what Honda is going to do now.

WebSportiva: Shocking fact, Honda Spec 3 has low durability

[Helix]

if he said it yesterday (Monday) it might be a new statement that provides more insight. Gandharva, can you provide us with a link to the interview if you have it?

I think that was what Horner said https://streamable.com/r9945

[dren]

Well the new PUs are lasting at least a race weekend. It sounds like more damage was done to Gasly's PU than expected because they couldn't run with the maps they wanted in Japan. I wonder what else the fix was mechanically.

[godlameroso]

2 high altitude races, and a power track, hopefully the new spec can last the rest of this season. If the ICE is getting damaged then I wonder if they're seeing more knock than anticipated. Perhaps driveline oscillations are transferring to the engine increasing wear on crank bearings?

[restless]

we had that info before Austin - that they mad some "fixes" to spec 3 due to extra damage...

[HPD]

Honda is serious

Toro Rosso is the test lab for Honda. Pierre Gasly and Brendon Hartley were also penalties in Austin. But not because the new Honda Spec3 engines suffered damage on the Suzuka debut. No, because Honda already launched Spec 3B in the US. The Japanese tried out new pistons and modified the maps so that the engine does not use as harsh when upshifting and thus ruined the gearbox.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... sa-austin/

[godlameroso]

Oh so it was the exact opposite of what I thought.

Impressive that they could roll out new pistons in such a short time, it really shows their commitment.

[Wouter]

In the AMuS article they themselves assume that there was no damage.
The Japanese article states that there was damage.
Which article is more reliable?
AMuS is reasonably reliable but often adds their own opinion, as being the facts.

Does anyone know how reliable this Japanese WebSportiva site is?

[Espresso]

2 high altitude races, and a power track, hopefully the new spec can last the rest of this season. If the ICE is getting damaged then I wonder if they're seeing more knock than anticipated. Perhaps driveline oscillations are transferring to the engine increasing wear on crank bearings?

The Suzuka engines got damaged because they were, after initial FIA aproval, not allowed to apply the engine settings to reduce oscillations. It's not crazy the engine got damaged.
STR is the 2018 testbed. And being able to 'control/manage' the oscillations will be beneficial voor the 2019 engine.

On the positive side.
The damaged (still running) Suzuka would give them an insight about where damage will occur with these oscillations.
They know where the have to strengthen the engine components.

For the Austin engine it looks to me this will be the right opportunity at the right moment to test the Spec 3 engine.
Hopefully the Austin engine wil last in Mexico and Brazil without problems. Would give a lot of feedback.

[factory_p]

The Suzuka engines got damaged because they were, after initial FIA aproval, not allowed to apply the engine settings to reduce oscillations. It's not crazy the engine got damaged.
STR is the 2018 testbed. And being able to 'control/manage' the oscillations will be beneficial voor the 2019 engine.

Here's how I picture the whole "post shift oscillations damages" saga.

Upshifts create transmission oscillations which are transmitted through the driveline to the crankshaft. With the crankshaft twisting like a spaghetti, piston speeds can be very abnormal, leading to exotic compression curves. This in turn heats up the air in the chamber sufficiently to cause serious knocking on a handful of combustions with engines running so close to the knock limit.

To mitigate that effect, constructors have to take away a few degrees of ignition timing post upshift.

I would guess the map they ran on Gasly's engine at Suzuka was not taking enough timing away post-upshift, hence the knock, hence the need for an evo on the pistons which may have suffered in Suzuka more than what's acceptable for an engine supposed to last 6 races.

[Tommy Cookers]

....Upshifts create transmission oscillations which are transmitted through the driveline to the crankshaft. With the crankshaft twisting like a spaghetti, piston speeds can be very abnormal, leading to exotic compression curves.
.....To mitigate that effect, constructors have to take away a few degrees of ignition timing post upshift. .....

imo in this situation ......
the crankshaft is normally twisting at higher frequencies and so doesn't twist much more here
the problem is the abnormally high rate of change of rpm momentarily giving less-than-design expansion during combustion

[Bandit1216]

The Suzuka engines got damaged because they were, after initial FIA aproval, not allowed to apply the engine settings to reduce oscillations. It's not crazy the engine got damaged.
STR is the 2018 testbed. And being able to 'control/manage' the oscillations will be beneficial voor the 2019 engine.

Here's how I picture the whole "post shift oscillations damages" saga.

Upshifts create transmission oscillations which are transmitted through the driveline to the crankshaft. With the crankshaft twisting like a spaghetti, piston speeds can be very abnormal, leading to exotic compression curves. This in turn heats up the air in the chamber sufficiently to cause serious knocking on a handful of combustions with engines running so close to the knock limit.

To mitigate that effect, constructors have to take away a few degrees of ignition timing post upshift.

I would guess the map they ran on Gasly's engine at Suzuka was not taking enough timing away post-upshift, hence the knock, hence the need for an evo on the pistons which may have suffered in Suzuka more than what's acceptable for an engine supposed to last 6 races.

Really? I doubt torsion twisting of the crankshaft would be so much that the piston speed changes are relevant. I mean 1 stroke is 0.0025 seconds at 12000 rpm. What effect would even 1 degree of twist really mean?

[Dr. Acula]

The Suzuka engines got damaged because they were, after initial FIA aproval, not allowed to apply the engine settings to reduce oscillations. It's not crazy the engine got damaged.
STR is the 2018 testbed. And being able to 'control/manage' the oscillations will be beneficial voor the 2019 engine.

Here's how I picture the whole "post shift oscillations damages" saga.

Upshifts create transmission oscillations which are transmitted through the driveline to the crankshaft. With the crankshaft twisting like a spaghetti, piston speeds can be very abnormal, leading to exotic compression curves. This in turn heats up the air in the chamber sufficiently to cause serious knocking on a handful of combustions with engines running so close to the knock limit.

To mitigate that effect, constructors have to take away a few degrees of ignition timing post upshift.

I would guess the map they ran on Gasly's engine at Suzuka was not taking enough timing away post-upshift, hence the knock, hence the need for an evo on the pistons which may have suffered in Suzuka more than what's acceptable for an engine supposed to last 6 races.

Really? I doubt torsion twisting of the crankshaft would be so much that the piston speed changes are relevant. I mean 1 stroke is 0.0025 seconds at 12000 rpm. What effect would even 1 degree of twist really mean?

Actually that would have a huge impact. The ignition timing is normally set by the crankshaft position sensor which is normally locatet at one end of the crankshaft. So if the crankshaft twists 1°, the ignitiontiming would be 1° off which could cause a power loss if the ignition happens to late or excessive knocking if it happens to early.
But a 1° twist is unrealistic in my opinion.