Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[trinidefender]

“And it rules out HCCI”.
blablabla

Seriously man. What are you trying to say? Half of your posts are gibberish to say the least
Is it so hard to try being more reasonable?!
Adding some newlines can help too ...

What is your problem? This user is saying HCCI is not used and I agree, HCCI is not suitable for high load appications. All the scientific literature backs this up, even Mazda's road engine can only use it while at cruising loads.

This user is also saying that people are too gullible, and will instantly run with whatever concoction is pushed out by any journalist. Worse people will take this misinformation as gospel, and become toxic if this wrong but popular "knowledge" is challenged.

HCCI was never seriously considered seriously on this forum as far as I remember.

TJI was, I believe, introduced on this forum separately, apart from and before it was picked up by journalists. Ergo saying that the conclusion was jumped to here by following journalists is factually wrong. Furthermore, the poster tried to discredit it by saying that it is against the rules, which again, is factually incorrect. The injector placement is decided by the rules that the injector has to be placed between the intake and exhaust vales in the combustion process. The fact that the word "direct" is used in the name for it is meaningless.

Honda have stated themselves that they use it.

[hurril]

godlameroso. Thank you, appreciated.

What is it that informs your opinion about the dis-usage of "TJI?" (Genuinely curious.)

[godlameroso]

godlameroso. Thank you, appreciated.

What is it that informs your opinion about the dis-usage of "TJI?" (Genuinely curious.)

How would you initiate combustion inside the pre chamber if the injector has to be outside of said chamber? There is a technical appendix to the regulations that specifies which types of injectors are allowed. What if in this appendix it is stated that the kind of multi stage injector needed to have a pre-chamber is not allowed?

We know the injectors are side mounted on the exhaust valve side on the Honda engine, and that the coil pack for the spark plug indicates it's mounted in a conventional way.

The most plausible method of having any kind of flame jet ignition with the current regulations is with the shrouded spark plug type.

[subcritical71]

A couple of questions;

- Why can't you have injection in a pre-chamber, the pre-chamber is located between the intake and exhaust valves?

- Are you saying the appendix makes a multi stage injector a no go?

- I found an article in which the author thought that a standard injector might be what is used;

When the injector was fully open, its spray pattern was a fairly narrow cone that reached the main chamber, but when the injector had nearly closed, the spray pattern became radial, fueling only the pre-chamber.

I don't think this would be multistage as the spray pattern is what is changing in its single stage of operation.

[Dr. Acula]

What is your problem? This user is saying HCCI is not used and I agree, HCCI is not suitable for high load appications. All the scientific literature backs this up, even Mazda's road engine can only use it while at cruising loads.

This user is also saying that people are too gullible, and will instantly run with whatever concoction is pushed out by any journalist. Worse people will take this misinformation as gospel, and become toxic if this wrong but popular "knowledge" is challenged.

Well, i would say the main reason HCCI was never really considered and every conversation about it was and would be a waste of time is because it's banned by the rules. The rules clearly say, that the ignition has to be initiated by a spark plug but HCCI uses compression ignition.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.

As i see it, TJI in this respect differs atleast in so far as there is no rule in place which wouldn't allow it.

[saviour stivala]

Seriously man. What are you trying to say? Half of your posts are gibberish to say the least
Is it so hard to try being more reasonable?!
Adding some newlines can help too ...

What is your problem? This user is saying HCCI is not used and I agree, HCCI is not suitable for high load appications. All the scientific literature backs this up, even Mazda's road engine can only use it while at cruising loads.

This user is also saying that people are too gullible, and will instantly run with whatever concoction is pushed out by any journalist. Worse people will take this misinformation as gospel, and become toxic if this wrong but popular "knowledge" is challenged.

HCCI was never seriously considered seriously on this forum as far as I remember.

TJI was, I believe, introduced on this forum separately, apart from and before it was picked up by journalists. Ergo saying that the conclusion was jumped to here by following journalists is factually wrong. Furthermore, the poster tried to discredit it by saying that it is against the rules, which again, is factually incorrect. The injector placement is decided by the rules that the injector has to be placed between the intake and exhaust vales in the combustion process. The fact that the word "direct" is used in the name for it is meaningless.

Honda have stated themselves that they use it.

"Honda have stated themselves that they use it". Incredible for such a statement to be repeated and parroted.

[etusch]

What is your problem? This user is saying HCCI is not used and I agree, HCCI is not suitable for high load appications. All the scientific literature backs this up, even Mazda's road engine can only use it while at cruising loads.

This user is also saying that people are too gullible, and will instantly run with whatever concoction is pushed out by any journalist. Worse people will take this misinformation as gospel, and become toxic if this wrong but popular "knowledge" is challenged.

Well, i would say the main reason HCCI was never really considered and every conversation about it was and would be a waste of time is because it's banned by the rules. The rules clearly say, that the ignition has to be initiated by a spark plug but HCCI uses compression ignition.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.

As i see it, TJI in this respect differs atleast in so far as there is no rule in place which wouldn't allow it.

I see a video about mazda's skyactive x engine and the Man in the video says they uses compression ignition but uses spark plug to start process in the right time. So it can be used I think. It is obvious that if it is hcci used at F1 engine again it is not completely same with road versions.

[godlameroso]

A couple of questions;

- Why can't you have injection in a pre-chamber, the pre-chamber is located between the intake and exhaust valves?

- Are you saying the appendix makes a multi stage injector a no go?

- I found an article in which the author thought that a standard injector might be what is used;

When the injector was fully open, its spray pattern was a fairly narrow cone that reached the main chamber, but when the injector had nearly closed, the spray pattern became radial, fueling only the pre-chamber.

I don't think this would be multistage as the spray pattern is what is changing in its single stage of operation.

The pre-chamber is in between the intake and exhaust valves but then how would you inject into the main chamber? Unless you have 1 injector feeding both(extremely improbable), you can't use a pre-chamber. You aren't allowed to have an injector which houses a pre-chamber and also a separate nozzle for the main chamber. Now, you can have an injector with multiple spray patterns, also the precision of the injector is up for grabs. Unfortunately you're limited by the 500 bar injection pressure which, unless you get creative, limits the fuel droplet size and in turn atomization.

If there is a "chamber", combustion isn't originating from it, more likely attenuating some acoustic frequency, in other words resonance tubes are being used to improve fuel atomization beyond the 500bar injection limit. Probably in conjunction with shrouded spark plug.



Shrouded Plug.


Standard Plug.

[1158]

5.11.1 would be almost impossible to police though. I'm not saying I think HCCI is being used, I'm just saying that detonation can and does happen. The FIA would need to prove the detonation was being used as the main source of ignition, how could they prove that without an admission from the team? Even if they look at knock/cylinder pressure sensors I don't think they could prove controlled detonation was the intent, especially if the plug is firing.

I do wonder would there be any advantage to using controlled detonation during slow speed/part throttle operation? Would it be a viable way to save fuel? Of course you have to make sure the ICE doesn't kill itself in the process...

Again, not saying it is happening, but I just don't think a regulation can stop it.

[godlameroso]

5.11.1 would be almost impossible to police though. I'm not saying I think HCCI is being used, I'm just saying that detonation can and does happen. The FIA would need to prove the detonation was being used as the main source of ignition, how could they prove that without an admission from the team? Even if they look at knock/cylinder pressure sensors I don't think they could prove controlled detonation was the intent, especially if the plug is firing.

I do wonder would there be any advantage to using controlled detonation during slow speed/part throttle operation? Would it be a viable way to save fuel? Of course you have to make sure the ICE doesn't kill itself in the process...

Again, not saying it is happening, but I just don't think a regulation can stop it.

Detonation is an easy way to melt aluminum parts.

[saviour stivala]

Seriously man. What are you trying to say? Half of your posts are gibberish to say the least
Is it so hard to try being more reasonable?!
Adding some newlines can help too ...

What is your problem? This user is saying HCCI is not used and I agree, HCCI is not suitable for high load appications. All the scientific literature backs this up, even Mazda's road engine can only use it while at cruising loads.

This user is also saying that people are too gullible, and will instantly run with whatever concoction is pushed out by any journalist. Worse people will take this misinformation as gospel, and become toxic if this wrong but popular "knowledge" is challenged.

HCCI was never seriously considered seriously on this forum as far as I remember.

TJI was, I believe, introduced on this forum separately, apart from and before it was picked up by journalists. Ergo saying that the conclusion was jumped to here by following journalists is factually wrong. Furthermore, the poster tried to discredit it by saying that it is against the rules, which again, is factually incorrect. The injector placement is decided by the rules that the injector has to be placed between the intake and exhaust vales in the combustion process. The fact that the word "direct" is used in the name for it is meaningless.

Honda have stated themselves that they use it.

"Honda have stated themselves that they use it" Saying/repeating/parroting that Honda the power unit manufacture
Having said/declared what combustion system/process they are using is incredible. but back than the journalist in question also told me that FERRARI also confirmed to him that they were using TJI combustion system, but that was as far as he went when challenged.
I did not and never did contest if the use of TJI in F1 was started here or not. That TJI combustion system is not compitible with F1 direct injection rules is my personal opinion, and that opinion of mine still stands.

[Dr. Acula]

What is your problem? This user is saying HCCI is not used and I agree, HCCI is not suitable for high load appications. All the scientific literature backs this up, even Mazda's road engine can only use it while at cruising loads.

This user is also saying that people are too gullible, and will instantly run with whatever concoction is pushed out by any journalist. Worse people will take this misinformation as gospel, and become toxic if this wrong but popular "knowledge" is challenged.

Well, i would say the main reason HCCI was never really considered and every conversation about it was and would be a waste of time is because it's banned by the rules. The rules clearly say, that the ignition has to be initiated by a spark plug but HCCI uses compression ignition.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.

As i see it, TJI in this respect differs atleast in so far as there is no rule in place which wouldn't allow it.

I see a video about mazda's skyactive x engine and the Man in the video says they uses compression ignition but uses spark plug to start process in the right time. So it can be used I think. It is obvious that if it is hcci used at F1 engine again it is not completely same with road versions.

That's a bit inaccurate. As far as i know what Mazda does is running the engine with spark ignition until the right conditions are reached. For instance on a cold day you would have massive problems to start the engine up with HCCI only because the cold engine block and head takes away to much heat to reach the necessary temperature for ignition. That's also the reason why Diesel engines are sometimes very hard to start in cold weather and why they use glow plugs.

[saviour stivala]

A couple of questions;

- Why can't you have injection in a pre-chamber, the pre-chamber is located between the intake and exhaust valves?

- Are you saying the appendix makes a multi stage injector a no go?

- I found an article in which the author thought that a standard injector might be what is used;

When the injector was fully open, its spray pattern was a fairly narrow cone that reached the main chamber, but when the injector had nearly closed, the spray pattern became radial, fueling only the pre-chamber.

I don't think this would be multistage as the spray pattern is what is changing in its single stage of operation.

"Why can't you have injection in pre-chamber?". because the technical rules stipulates a 'direct injection' as the system to be used.

[1158]

Detonation is an easy way to melt aluminum parts.

Yeah it sure does. I've seen enough melted b series pistons from piss poor tuning to know. I just wonder if there would be a way to accomplish it by not melting Al. The talk of Ferrari steel pistons started making me wonder about the feasibility of it.

[restless]

"Honda have stated themselves that they use it" Saying/repeating/parroting that Honda the power unit manufacture
Having said/declared what combustion system/process they are using is incredible. but back than the journalist in question also told me that FERRARI also confirmed to him that they were using TJI combustion system, but that was as far as he went when challenged.
I did not and never did contest if the use of TJI in F1 was started here or not. That TJI combustion system is not compitible with F1 direct injection rules is my personal opinion, and that opinion of mine still stands.

So, you claim Honda lied when stated they use TJI-like ignition?