What changes should be made to the rules for lapped cars in F1?

[TwanV]

Everyone on the grid I think gets this, just Max didn't? I am quite frankly baffled why Ocon was punished with the 10s stop&go, because this is seriously sending the wrong signal.

Sorry I guess it depends what your sources are but I haven't seen a single comment from anyone, (former) drivers, press or FIA supporting this stance apart from Lewis'. And of course he is a direct competitor who wants to show he won the race on his own merit.

[dans79]

I don't care who the subject is, this case is black and white for me. There shouldn't be a rule change, but apparently it is needed because P16 can have delusions of grandeur these days.

how nice, an anonymous downvote.

Their always anonymous!

[Fulcrum]

I voted for no more blue flags.

I think they are largely unnecessary. Considering the lead car (receiving the benefit of the blue flag) already managed to be a lap distance in front, it seems reasonable that no additional assistance, beyond DRS, should be required to perform the inevitable overtake.

That it might take more time, effort, and be less convenient to the lead driver seems reasonable, considering how many benefits are already enjoyed by the leaders (e.g. driving in clean air for the majority of the race). Having to pass backmarkers without assistance would also require a greater degree of skill from leading drivers - a skill that some appear to lack altogether at times.

Will there be occasions where this rule could be problematic? Yes, Monaco for one. However, using that case as the counterexample is rather counterproductive considering it is an outlier. Teams could attempt to exploit this rule by deliberately slowing one of their drivers. My counterargument would be strategy is a part of the sport, and always has been.

Aside from which, the rule change is designed to benefit slower cars. More television exposure being the primary reason IMO. Allowing them to race would bring critical seconds/minutes in-frame, something that backmarker teams are seldom afforded.

[Andres125sx]

This poll is missing the obvious reply to me: un-lapping must be banned

While it´s not banned, this will continue happening, if it´s not banned there´s no reason a lapped car with new and soft tires will try it again, and IMHO it´s absurd because as soon as he loose the tire advantage in few laps, the leader will have to lap him again, causing him to loose time two times


I don´t think Ocon fault was that severe, it was his mistake obviously, but since he broke no rule he had to try

[Phil]

I think blue flags exist for the sole purpose of not having two cars tangle with each other that shouldnt. If races werent carried out on circuits but rather on stages (a to b), there would be no such thing as a ‘lapped car’.

Having blue flags neutralizes the encounter, because there shouldnt be one in the first place. If there was, there’d be an endless debate if it is fair that a lapped car messed with anothers race. Given that now days, even the slower cars are affiliated in some way to the faster teams, this could cause quite a bit of contraversy. It could also so happen that a driver could be used as a pawn to hold up a competitor to aid the team or his team-mate.

So IMO, the best would be to extend the courtesy of blue flags not only for cars being lapped, but also on the rare occasion to a car who is slower than a car who is about to unlap itself. This takes away the risk that something could happen somewhat.

Ps: cars unlapping themselves is not that uncommon, we just rarely notice or realize it, because it isnt usually shown and most of the time, it doesnt end in a collision. I’m fairly certain there have been races, aided by the sensitivity of these tires, where the ‘leaders’ had been nursing their tires to get to the end while backmarkers were catching up on fresher tires. In these cases, the lead cars just simply let those cars pass without blocking.

[Vyssion]

Blue flags are a tricky one imo... On one hand, you would want to give a driver the opportunity to unlap themselves if they were able to; however, in todays age of F1, is it really ever going to happen that one of the backmarker cars is going to, not only unlap themselves, but then contrinue to race at some speed which is faster than the Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bulls? I would say most definitely not...

I do like the unlapping under safety cars because traffic is no doubt one of the biggest annoyances for the leading pack of drivers; at the same time, it does bunch them up sometimes which promotes better racing wheel to wheel - adding a little something "extra" you know?

Perhaps some sort of DRS like trigger for blue flags should exist...

When the lead car (and those after) get within 1-3 seconds of the car in front, there should be some sort of trigger which says that the about-to-be-lapped car needs to move over and let the car behind them pass before either the next corner or some sort of marker line which is drawn after each corner...

Obviously, it is incredibly nuanced and would require some thought behind it, but I do think that if your car is about to be lapped, then your no where near the front of the racing and need to gtfo the way asap.

[Phil]

however, in todays age of F1, is it really ever going to happen that one of the backmarker cars is going to, not only unlap themselves, but then contrinue to race at some speed which is faster than the Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bulls? I would say most definitely not...

How is this relevant? The cars are not in direct contention, but the lapped cars are in a race of their own where every tenth counts just as much (to them) as laptimes do for the frontrunners.

E.g. a car that is a lap behind could just as well be fighting for position in a matter of tenths and not being held up by a slower car a lap ahead could be crucial for that cars race.

And just to refute your “a lapped car could never be consistently faster than one of the front runners”: these Pirelli tires do make it possible. The fastest car on the grid could be nursing its tires to get through on a one stop race to get to the end vs a midfield car could be running super aggressive on a 2 or 3 stop race but much faster tires and quicker stint times.

As an example:
Hamilton at this very race in Brazil, running super long on mediums on a somewhat compromized strategy by pitting way early.

By saying that cars have no place in fighting for tenths if they need to unlap themselves is like saying no ome cares about their race. Maybe they shouldnt race at all then?

[zac510]

Everyone assumes that a car unlapping itself is a mid-pack runner, but it could be a top 3 team one day if, for example, they suffered a botched pitstop and fell a lap behind.

[jjn9128]

There's no issue here. A more sensible driver would just have let Ocon go by rather than try to race him. If he lapped him again in 2/3 laps once the new tyres had lost their edge so be it - in that situation he'd have the benefit of blue flags to help him by.

I'd like to see blue flags scrapped, but the way F1 is right now it's just not feasible. That said... maybe it would encourage the top teams to design/optimize their cars to be better in traffic...

[Big Tea]

I voted for no more blue flags.

I think they are largely unnecessary. Considering the lead car (receiving the benefit of the blue flag) already managed to be a lap distance in front, it seems reasonable that no additional assistance, beyond DRS, should be required to perform the inevitable overtake.

That it might take more time, effort, and be less convenient to the lead driver seems reasonable, considering how many benefits are already enjoyed by the leaders (e.g. driving in clean air for the majority of the race). Having to pass backmarkers without assistance would also require a greater degree of skill from leading drivers - a skill that some appear to lack altogether at times.

Will there be occasions where this rule could be problematic? Yes, Monaco for one. However, using that case as the counterexample is rather counterproductive considering it is an outlier. Teams could attempt to exploit this rule by deliberately slowing one of their drivers. My counterargument would be strategy is a part of the sport, and always has been.

Aside from which, the rule change is designed to benefit slower cars. More television exposure being the primary reason IMO. Allowing them to race would bring critical seconds/minutes in-frame, something that backmarker teams are seldom afforded.

I agree with this. If a car is 'good enough' to lap another it has to be good enough to pass it. It may also move away from plain aero for the fastest quali lap to a more rounded lap speed and possibly remove some of the emphasis on qualifying we see at the moment.

Also, I have noticed that when a lower field car lucks into a better qualifying position it tends to have far better results. This being partly down to having a fair race rather than losing several seconds every time a 'top' car comes within a mile of it.

To me, Racing is about far more than just going as fast as the car will go around a track. Back to the earlier racing, there were drivers that made up much of their game by being able to pass other cars while the competition could not.
Looking at other series, they seem to have little trouble when there are several lower spec of car on the track at the same time, it is just a matter of drivers and teams making the adjustment to it.

I think it would be far more interesting, and would reward driver skill over car performance as it is now.

As JJN says above, this is a specific incident and should be treated as such, not revert to old style knee-jerk legislation which got us into this position anyway.

[Vyssion]

however, in todays age of F1, is it really ever going to happen that one of the backmarker cars is going to, not only unlap themselves, but then contrinue to race at some speed which is faster than the Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bulls? I would say most definitely not...

How is this relevant? The cars are not in direct contention, but the lapped cars are in a race of their own where every tenth counts just as much (to them) as laptimes do for the frontrunners.
...
And just to refute your “a lapped car could never be consistently faster than one of the front runners”: these Pirelli tires do make it possible. The fastest car on the grid could be nursing its tires to get through on a one stop race to get to the end vs a midfield car could be running super aggressive on a 2 or 3 stop race but much faster tires and quicker stint times.
...
By saying that cars have no place in fighting for tenths if they need to unlap themselves is like saying no ome cares about their race. Maybe they shouldnt race at all then?

I think you misunderstood what I was saying - the very first line of my comment was:

Blue flags are a tricky one imo... On one hand, you would want to give a driver the opportunity to unlap themselves if they were able to; ...

If a lapped car is able to pass and stay ahead of a front runner, then I'm all for letting them have that opportunity. What I take issue with, is the same argument you posed for the lapped cars being in their own race for position and fighting for tenths, being applied to the front runners. Everyone is fighting for tenths.

I dont think it is fair to make the front runners navigate through the field when they come up to lapping cars. However!!, I would prefer that they did have to race against them because I think it would increase the total amount of "action" in the race (albeit most would be sailing past on the straights, but there would be some gems I'm sure). I'd just grab my popcorn when the innevitable crash happens between the 1st place and 20th place car because the 20th "thought he could defend the overtake"

Ultimately, VER probably should have just let OCO go past rather than what ended up happening.

[Phil]

The problem with this is that for most overtakes, it always takes two to tango. If the car behind is faster by a delta of, lets say 2-3 seconds, a pass on most DRS straights is perhaps easily doable. If the delta is smaller, but still significant (lets say 1-2 second), a DRS straight might not be enough. If that place isn't enough for a safe and straight forward overtake, it always takes two and a healthy share of respect by both drivers to concede a position when they've been out maneuvered. Unfortunately, not all drivers do this - some still drive with seemingly zero regard for their competitors and with the entitlement that they own that part of the track. As such, they often put others in a high risk position.

Monza 2017 was an excellent example of how two drivers (Hamilton and Raikkonen) raced hard but with the right amount of respect to not crash into each other.
There was a very memorable overtake between Webber and Alonso into Eau Rouge at Spa a few years ago (2012?) that could have easily ended in tears, but didn't because again, they were racing while giving each other space and room.

There are other examples of clashes where both drivers did not give each other the room and respect for a fair battle. Max/Ricciardo at Baku. Countless examples between Hamilton/Rosberg, Max/Bottas at Monza etc.

My point is; If every one raced with some respect for each other, they probably would crash less. This means that occasionally, you will concede a position because that might still be better than to not and crash out and lose valuable points. This applies to both battles between cars battling for position but also cars lapping or unlapping each other.

[marmer]

This poll is missing the obvious reply to me: un-lapping must be banned

While it´s not banned, this will continue happening, if it´s not banned there´s no reason a lapped car with new and soft tires will try it again, and IMHO it´s absurd because as soon as he loose the tire advantage in few laps, the leader will have to lap him again, causing him to loose time two times


I don´t think Ocon fault was that severe, it was his mistake obviously, but since he broke no rule he had to try

So what if a lead car has an issue or fuel savings are they just supposed to cue up behind until the lead car pits or retires

[Ennis]

I vote No Change. And my main reason is, in trying to fix this problem you make other things worse. I'm sure someone smarter than me will know the technical term for it, but everything has a consequence beyond your initial intentions. It is impossible to introduce a rule change for this, without accidentally impacting something else - I'll outline below why I think each of these options are worse.

No more blue flags - lead drivers race lapped drivers, all normal racing rules apply.
I like this, I do, but I also admit that it makes things more of a lottery, and I tend to like things which introduce at least a degree of randomness. But my biggest issue - you're then even deeper in to the realms of relationships with other teams. Red Bull using TR, Mercedes using FI/Williams, etc. It just becomes far too easy to use it tactically. If we think team orders are bad, wait till we see non-team orders.

No more lapped drivers - as soon as a car is lapped the race is over for them, return to the pits.
Too empty a track, even fewer battles, and teams scared to pit at certain moments leading to even more boring processions. Even stupid things like drivers taking a hit on the first lap will be unduly penalised. It's a race, not a knockout.

Blue flags for lead drivers - if a lapped car is quicker the lead cars are given blue flags and must let the lapped cars through.
A leader driver should never need to unduly slow down to let a backmarker through. It's just bizarre, you do not prioritise the people at the back over the people fighting for wins and championships.

Unlapping must be banned.
We then have even weirder processions. If there is a distinct difference in pace, just let the cars go their fastest.

In short - this barely happens. The vast majority of drivers are smart enough to ensure this doesn't happen, and it really takes two drivers to go wrong at once for this to happen. This in top of the already relatively rare occurrence of backmarkers having a pace advantage on the leading pack, and not needing to be concerned with any surrounding pack. Anything else will cause more problems than it will solve.

[Just_a_fan]

I guess some people have short memories and forget why the enforced blue flags rule was introduced.

With today's cars on today's circuits, without blue flags we'd have the leaders getting around to the back of the field and then stalling. Backmarkers are capable of circulating within 2 seconds / lap of the leaders. A delta of 2seconds is needed to be able to pass on many circuits with these cars. It doesn't take Einstein to see the result...