Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Big Tea]

It's about 1.5gb of data per 300km or so that's transmitted from the car to the pits via the ECU if I remember correctly. If the FIA were to ask for a more modern ECU that uses the latest advancements in chipset and processor design then the amount of data transmitted would likely increase significantly, meaning the top teams and manufacturers could afford the necessary processing power (and high speed internet connections) to mine the data properly to find useful pieces of information.

People moaning about F1 not being at the pinnacle of technology, should look at the way the manufacturers and teams use data to shape development. McLaren is using it's experience in F1 to help the NHS in the UK - https://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnolo ... ealthcare/

On the whole it looks like Honda appears to be on the verge of getting everything lined up properly to produce a decent PU. Which is all I've wanted to see from the outset.

Is that the data sent 'as is' or compressed before transmission? Sounds very low.

[dren]

It sounds like both TR and Honda built in error margins for reliability reasons at the start of the season. Spec 2 was a reduction of those margins which netted power gains. They downsized the water pump and reworked the exhaust. They don't specifically say what netted the large gains for the spec 3, just that something came about and they focused on it. Orihara goes on to state that they'd run the ICE as lean as possible if the H didn't exist, but they have to balance ICE and the H. He says sometimes you gain more with the H than you would with the ICE and said it's track dependent.

Looks like Big Tea ushered us into the 4 digits.

[bigblue]

Looks like Big Tea ushered us into the 4 digits.

Maybe Honda will follow suit

[mzso]

Even though the control systems are archaic bits from the late 90's. We depend so much on computers, to model combustion behavior, to predict and develop recovery strategies, when to deploy, etc. Even the fuel blends depend on computers being able to predict and model chemical reactions. Perhaps this was intentionally done in order to waste more resources, because if they had a better standardized ECU the performance of the power units would really show. Since the ECU is so limited you have to engineer work arounds that compensate for it's lack of function. I wonder how many resources go to waste on that in the hopes of having a "level" playing field.

I wonder what would be the result of a standardized ECU with technology from 10 years ago, vs one from 20 years ago that is currently in use.

Interesting suggestion. Never imagined an old ECU design could have design implications.
In your opinion what should a more modern ECU have that the current one lacks that's of importance?

[shady]

The ECU has gone over several updates since 2007, namely from V8 to V6h

For the 2019 series, the evolution of the TAG-320 ECU continues with the introduction of the TAG-320B which will be used for all F1 cars until 2021.

[Jaisonas]

Didnt see any follow up after those fishy articles about current issues with oscillations, so its safe to assume it was about what happened between russian and japanese gp right?

[godlameroso]

Even though the control systems are archaic bits from the late 90's. We depend so much on computers, to model combustion behavior, to predict and develop recovery strategies, when to deploy, etc. Even the fuel blends depend on computers being able to predict and model chemical reactions. Perhaps this was intentionally done in order to waste more resources, because if they had a better standardized ECU the performance of the power units would really show. Since the ECU is so limited you have to engineer work arounds that compensate for it's lack of function. I wonder how many resources go to waste on that in the hopes of having a "level" playing field.

I wonder what would be the result of a standardized ECU with technology from 10 years ago, vs one from 20 years ago that is currently in use.

Interesting suggestion. Never imagined an old ECU design could have design implications.
In your opinion what should a more modern ECU have that the current one lacks that's of importance?

Better functions for sensors, higher sampling rate, better management of the power unit sub-systems.

[gruntguru]

That graph is at lamda = 1. My common senss tell me the graph title is a typo.

The graph title (% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI (lambda=1)) simply means "% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI".

The "(lambda=1)" is just telling us that the baseline SI engine readings were taken at lambda=1.

Who said it wasn't at Lambda 1?

The title says "Percent reduction" which can mislead overenthusiastic readers when they see 99% "reduction" on the graph! It more like fractions of a percent reduction.

And that is my point. He should have look across the entire lambda range on the other graph on the right before jumping to the conclusion that TJI make 99% less NOx. For similar lamda the NOx is almost the same. Honda has Lean burn standard ignition engines that are low NOx, but naturally the SAE study would not have that data to compare with TJI at higher Lambda values.

My post was entirely directed at your comment that the graph title must be a typo. You didn't specify where the "typo" was so I explained the entire thing including bits you may have already understood.

The percent reduction claim is entirely valid provided the supporting text in the paper (which you did not include) is clear about what the graph represents. The claim is also valid given:
- Because the paper is about modification of an existing engine, results should be before vs after - on the same engine - not some lean burn research engine from another manufacturer.
- The existing engine cannot be operated lean enough to reduce engine-out NOx to the point where the catalyst can be eliminated, and so must operated at 1.0 to feed the 3-way cat.

[gruntguru]

That graph is at lamda = 1. My common senss tell me the graph title is a typo.

The graph title (% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI (lambda=1)) simply means "% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI".

The "(lambda=1)" is just telling us that the baseline SI engine readings were taken at lambda=1.

Also note that the title "percentage reduction" is a misleading title for the graph. It should just be "percentage"
Check the other graphs to see why i say this.

"Percentage" = 100 - "percentage reduction"

Its not that hard.

[PlatinumZealot]

The graph title (% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI (lambda=1)) simply means "% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI".

The "(lambda=1)" is just telling us that the baseline SI engine readings were taken at lambda=1.

Also note that the title "percentage reduction" is a misleading title for the graph. It should just be "percentage"
Check the other graphs to see why i say this.

"Percentage" = 100 - "percentage reduction"

Its not that hard.

It is not hard for me.. But it is hard for some people....

Check the graph (the Nox one at lambda =1) and see the inconsistency with the title of it.
The TJI DOES NOT have a 99% reduction in NOx vesrsus normal spark ignition at lamda =1 as the title of the graph suggests. If we cross check it with the second graph we see that this actually "percentage of."
Even at other similar lamda the ex-engine TJI NOx can be considered simlar to normal spark based on other papers too.


Some users here got mislead by the graph title of that one graph without cross checking its values in the other graphs. They would have seen the graph title wording is incorrect.

Anyway..
I think the Mazda skyactive X SPCCI is notable. I doubt F1 teams are using it because the position of the spark plug in SPCCI if very off-centered and this is not immediately apparent in any of the F1 engines. But it is an interesting technology. It needs continuous feedback from a pressure sensor to work properly though.
The injector sprays cloud of fuel to the spark plug which triggers a pressure spike then then causes compression ignition of fuel. Very fast combustion but not as fast as TJI. It also not as stable as TJI and only works well up to medium loads. But fuel efficiency figures are amazing i hear.

[restless]

slightly offtopic, but interesting story how Honda engine was not competitive enough in Indicar, and needed 6 years to turn the tide
https://motorsports.vtec.net/blog/227/l ... car-title/

[gruntguru]

Check the graph (the Nox one at lambda =1) and see the inconsistency with the title of it.
The TJI DOES NOT have a 99% reduction in NOx vesrsus normal spark ignition at lamda =1 as the title of the graph suggests. If we cross check it with the second graph we see that this actually "percentage of."
Even at other similar lamda the ex-engine TJI NOx can be considered simlar to normal spark based on other papers too.

The "Lambda = 1" is in brackets immediately after the words "Baseline SI".
The caption below says ". . . engine out NOx emission comparisons of jet ignition and stoichiometric spark ignition combustion"

[GoranF1]

Some say there are problems on the dyno...

[Stef]

That's the point of the dyno, no ?

[GoranF1]

That's the point of the dyno, no ?

Partly