Scuderia Ferrari SF72H Speculation Thread

[Just_a_fan]

The outwash front wings would have been quite high drag - any time you turn air / add vorticity (both of which the front wings did) you add drag. The outer ends of the old front wings must have been quite large drag producers as they were effective "air turners". The front wings will probably be lower drag this season because they are doing less to the air. The front air brakes will be simpler and do less so probably less drag there too. The rear wing is bigger so will produce more drag.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the overall drag is the same as last year but that it is more at the rear than before. The cars might even be slightly more stable because of that (although it's probably a small effect).

[Big Mangalhit]

I personally think drag levels will be higher. Maybe not as a result of the aerodynamic changes, but because of the 5kg higher fuel limit, which will allow more wing to be run for the race.

1) Since you clearly understand aero quite well, what do think about my previous reasoning in which blown axles+FW outwash plates plus less bargeboards will lead to a harder time managing the front tyre wake and increase both tyres drag.
Also since the teams can't play with outwash as much to make the air go around the front tyre is it possible we see and increase of upwash (since that air will anyway be draggy if it hits the tyre) which leads to increase in downforce and drag.

2) Last year I remember many reports of teams no filling the total 105kg of fuel allowed in some races. If that is true then surely they will not use the 110kg for those races.
Unless they need it to compensate for the increase of drag and maybe this is the main reason they increase the allowance?

I think a good question is if a team could choose to run a 2018 rule spec car or a 2019 rule spec car which one would they choose. I am inclined to think they would choose 2018 for better efficiency which means I think that to have the same values of DF of last year using this year rulebook they will have increased drag.

[turbof1]

I personally think drag levels will be higher. Maybe not as a result of the aerodynamic changes, but because of the 5kg higher fuel limit, which will allow more wing to be run for the race.

1) Since you clearly understand aero quite well, what do think about my previous reasoning in which blown axles+FW outwash plates plus less bargeboards will lead to a harder time managing the front tyre wake and increase both tyres drag.
Also since the teams can't play with outwash as much to make the air go around the front tyre is it possible we see and increase of upwash (since that air will anyway be draggy if it hits the tyre) which leads to increase in downforce and drag.

2) Last year I remember many reports of teams no filling the total 105kg of fuel allowed in some races. If that is true then surely they will not use the 110kg for those races.
Unless they need it to compensate for the increase of drag and maybe this is the main reason they increase the allowance?

I think a good question is if a team could choose to run a 2018 rule spec car or a 2019 rule spec car which one would they choose. I am inclined to think they would choose 2018 for better efficiency which means I think that to have the same values of DF of last year using this year rulebook they will have increased drag.

1) I wouldn't say I understand "aero quite well". There are people around here with vastly more knowledge. I have been told by more knowledgeable people, that the aerodynamic drag will roughly remain the same regarding the aero changes.

2) It's not a flat "we need X amount of fuel for that race" calculation. Burning more fuel leads to a higher average horsepower, and a higher average horsepower leads to a higher average drag level (because of more horsepower to compensate for the speed/acceleration loss of the added drag), but also to more weight to start the race. See it more as "we can sacrifice X% of average horsepower or X% of downforce for a lighter car". Don't forget, this plays a role for the qualifying as well.

And of course they would choose a 2018 car. I think nobody would contest that. Given the front wing is the very first surface to come in contact with the airflow, they want to shift as much as airflow control devices to that surface. We are speaking about a much better aero efficiency AND a more potential to develop. Now teams have to heavily develop the secundary airflow control devices, the bargeboards, to somewhat compensate.

Any case, I'm going to drop this discussion here. The topic still is about the ferrari 2019 contender.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I personally think drag levels will be higher. Maybe not as a result of the aerodynamic changes, but because of the 5kg higher fuel limit, which will allow more wing to be run for the race.

But that(fuel available) is not how they determine wing/downforce levels to be raced. They usually(for non max downforce races) determine a crucial corner that they want to be able to take flat out in qually, say t15 & t16 at Spa, or t6 & t7 at Monza and then determine/estimate fuel usage at that wing level and determine how much fuel to carry from there (while under fueling for safety cars etc). So just because they have more fuel available does not mean they will put it in the car, they will determine race fuel load based on their downforce/drag characteristics.

[ENGINE TUNER]

The outwash front wings would have been quite high drag - any time you turn air / add vorticity (both of which the front wings did) you add drag. The outer ends of the old front wings must have been quite large drag producers as they were effective "air turners". The front wings will probably be lower drag this season because they are doing less to the air. The front air brakes will be simpler and do less so probably less drag there too. The rear wing is bigger so will produce more drag.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the overall drag is the same as last year but that it is more at the rear than before. The cars might even be slightly more stable because of that (although it's probably a small effect).

The rear wings are only run as big as wanted, if they can produce as much downforce required(for balance) while running a smaller angle of attack wing they will do so(as we see at Spa and Monza every year). Raising the rear wings will put them in cleaner air thus making them more efficient. Increasing the wing span will also make them more efficient. Increasing the chord will also make them more efficient. All of those factors making the 2019 rear wing more efficient will allow the teams to run less angle of attack to produce the same amount of downforce. Less angle of attack means much less downforce. That is my simple take on it.

[dsdevries]

But that(fuel available) is not how they determine wing/downforce levels to be raced. They usually(for non max downforce races) determine a crucial corner that they want to be able to take flat out in qually, say t15 & t16 at Spa, or t6 & t7 at Monza and then determine/estimate fuel usage at that wing level and determine how much fuel to carry from there (while under fueling for safety cars etc). So just because they have more fuel available does not mean they will put it in the car, they will determine race fuel load based on their downforce/drag characteristics.

Most of this is true, but you're wrong on one crucial point.
Yes, you always setup your car for the fastest laptime, because this setup is almost always also the most efficient setup.
And Yes, they do calculate the total fuel consumption based on this setup using the fixed maximum flow rate of 100kg/h.
but... increasing the maxium fuel consumption from 105kg per race to 110kg came from the actual real life situation that by using the above approach, in almost all races ALL teams actually do needed to preserve fuel during the race and they couldn't race at their full speed.

So yes, they will take the extra fuell on board next year.

[Just_a_fan]

The rear wings are only run as big as wanted, if they can produce as much downforce required(for balance) while running a smaller angle of attack wing they will do so(as we see at Spa and Monza every year). Raising the rear wings will put them in cleaner air thus making them more efficient. Increasing the wing span will also make them more efficient. Increasing the chord will also make them more efficient. All of those factors making the 2019 rear wing more efficient will allow the teams to run less angle of attack to produce the same amount of downforce. Less angle of attack means much less downforce. That is my simple take on it.

The front wings will be producing more downforce so they'll be using some/all of the rear wing to balance it. More downforce means more drag.

The question is whether the increase in drag from the downforce is more or less than the loss of drag from doing all the fancy turning and shaping of flow with the front wing. Overall, if the teams start the season with more downforce then are almost certainly starting with more drag too, unless they've managed to do some magic somewhere.

Increasing the wing span will also make them more efficient. Increasing the chord will also make them more efficient.

If they increase span and chord then they could end up with the same, or worse, aspect ratio as before. It's the aspect ratio that brings efficiency, as I understand it.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Most of this is true, but you're wrong on one crucial point.
Yes, you always setup your car for the fastest laptime, because this setup is almost always also the most efficient setup.
And Yes, they do calculate the total fuel consumption based on this setup using the fixed maximum flow rate of 100kg/h.
but... increasing the maxium fuel consumption from 105kg per race to 110kg came from the actual real life situation that by using the above approach, in almost all races ALL teams actually do needed to preserve fuel during the race and they couldn't race at their full speed.

So yes, they will take the extra fuell on board next year.

I'm not convinced. The teams can't race at their full speed/pace because the tires will not allow them to do so, especially on a 1 stop strategy (which was the norm in 2018). The teams are far more limited by the tires then they are by the fuel, and only underfuel as much as they do because of the weakness of the tires, and those tires will not be much different next season. Merc for example, will not add more fuel to the car for a race like Soain, which they dominated, just because they are allowed to, unless they have more drag to deal with, even if they had to fuel save during the race. Paddy Lowe has already claimed that the additional fuel will make little to no difference for most of the races. The winners of last year's races were probably way below the max allowed race fuel of 105kg. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[LM10]

It's just senseless to increase it to 110 l when the actual limiting factors are the tyres and the PU. Teams need to do 21 races with 3 PUs and during the race they need to look after their tyres. In those conditions there are no fuel issues anyway.

I can only think of one team which will have an advantage and that's RBR. They usually nurse their tyres like no other team and they already plan to use 5 engines (which means they can push more anyway). Excellent tyre wear and 5 PUs equal more pushing and the higher fuel limit would just help them on this way.

But that's off-topic, as well as quite a few posts above.

[Big Mangalhit]

And of course they would choose a 2018 car. I think nobody would contest that. Given the front wing is the very first surface to come in contact with the airflow, they want to shift as much as airflow control devices to that surface. We are speaking about a much better aero efficiency AND a more potential to develop. Now teams have to heavily develop the secundary airflow control devices, the bargeboards, to somewhat compensate.

Any case, I'm going to drop this discussion here. The topic still is about the ferrari 2019 contender.

Quite a few posts ago they said that Ferrari as already the levels of 2018 in terms of downforce. If for you it is a no brainer that the 2018 rule set is more efficient. Then for them to keep the same downforce levels with lower efficiency (2019 rules) it means they have more drag.

[turbof1]

And of course they would choose a 2018 car. I think nobody would contest that. Given the front wing is the very first surface to come in contact with the airflow, they want to shift as much as airflow control devices to that surface. We are speaking about a much better aero efficiency AND a more potential to develop. Now teams have to heavily develop the secundary airflow control devices, the bargeboards, to somewhat compensate.

Any case, I'm going to drop this discussion here. The topic still is about the ferrari 2019 contender.

Quite a few posts ago they said that Ferrari as already the levels of 2018 in terms of downforce. If for you it is a no brainer that the 2018 rule set is more efficient. Then for them to keep the same downforce levels with lower efficiency (2019 rules) it means they have more drag.

I think they will have less downforce. Also, big difference between downforce levels of testing 2018 and Abu Dhabi 2018.

[GPR-A]

I can only think of one team which will have an advantage and that's RBR. They usually nurse their tyres like no other team and they already plan to use 5 engines (which means they can push more anyway). Excellent tyre wear and 5 PUs equal more pushing and the higher fuel limit would just help them on this way.

With new regulations on front wing, changes on barge board and most importantly, a new construction of tires would set to change how a car behaves on it's tires. With out wash effect being removed through the new regulations, it remains to be seen how the front tires get affected. There is going to be a larger wake of front tires that need to be controlled, with shorter barge boards (although longer). With tires coming with thinner tread, teams yet to understand the ideal load for these new tires, under a very different aero philosophy.

RB also exceeded in their usage of gear box in 2018, reliability of which is also going to be a question mark along with the PU. So, it's not a given that RBR would be the best car for these conditions.

Being in championship contention and managing every single component and being very conservative to avoid penalties that derail championship is a very different situation to someone who have shown good performance by throwing as many components on the car without bothering about incurring penalties due to not being in championship fight. So, it has been an apples to oranges in comparison.

Exceeding components usage in a planned way is different to being forced to replace them out of plan when components blow up. If PU components fail in succession, as happened last year with Toro Rosso, then you are thrown out into unplanned situations where you are exceeding the component usage, but completely out of plan and have to struggle to extend the life of exceeded components. It is actually easier for Mercedes and Ferrari to plan and exceed the components due to their established reliability, but it can't be said of Honda.

[Juzh]

It's just senseless to increase it to 110 l when the actual limiting factors are the tyres and the PU.

If it's just senseless then just scrap the limit all together then and be done with it. Let the teams decide what's best in this case.
Because this has not happened (yet), then there must oposition to it, which by definition makes it not senseless, because someone is getting an advantage out of it.

[Nonserviam85]

Off topic, off topic everywhere...

[aral]

I quite agree! The topic is the Ferrari SF72H speculation, so could we please get back onto the subject again?