F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

[Jolle]

What's the point of sandbagging? Does it make the other teams decide to slack on their development?

two reasons off the top of my head why you might want to sandbag.

1. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on. If you light up the time sheets your car is going to be put under a microscope to try and determine how you did it. If you take it easy, the other teams might not pick up on it till the season starts. That means you will be several races into the season before they can get it on their cars.

2. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on, that might get protested or banned. Just like above, if you can delay when the other teams start copying it, you can build a lead in the early part of the season.


Just look at last year, Mercedes knew Ferrari was doing something different with the ERS early in the season, but they didn't get an update to their system till post Spa.

With sandbagging teams only shoot themselves in the foot. Compromise your own test and/or not to try out new parts to "trick" you're fellow teams who have acces to a lot of data, skilled mechanics/technicians etc etc.

What they are doing, is gathering data to improve their simulators of the current car even more, the rakes to correlate with CFD and how to optimise the tires. With this data they know what the car is capable of in Q. No need for glory runs, they cost too much time. The role of the driver is also different then in the old days. Gone are the days that the driver came in, "little more damping on the front and a little less toe in at the rear". It's all about driving a set delta is match the sim and understand the tires.

[NathanOlder]

Most interesting to me is the delta between VES and VER. Of course much uncertainty there but RB tried a lot of different set ups so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some overlap with Ferrari's program today. 4 tenths sounds reasonably accurate taking into account all the whisperings around the paddock these last days.

I agree too that Mercs form is a mystery. Also Hamilton isn't particularly bold about their car feeling "different". But those guys are the undisputed masters of smoke and mirrors so I'll guess we just have to wait and see next week.

Who's VES ? That meant to be VET ?

[TwanV]

I stand corrected sir, VET of course.

[dans79]

What they are doing, is gathering data to improve their simulators of the current car even more, the rakes to correlate with CFD and how to optimise the tires. With this data they know what the car is capable of in Q. No need for glory runs, they cost too much time. The role of the driver is also different then in the old days. Gone are the days that the driver came in, "little more damping on the front and a little less toe in at the rear". It's all about driving a set delta is match the sim and understand the tires.

Depending on who you ask this is sandbagging, or a sign something is wrong (looking at you Johnny Herbert).

The one thing I can say about Merc is that their long run pace looked very good, and they seemed to be pretty easy on the tires as well.

[PhillipM]

holding back because of internal reasons I agree but whenever there is components available which makes you faster it is a no-brainer to put them on right away in order to verify data with reality.

No, it isn't - if some designer says "look, I've found half a tenth with this bit, and it works with everything on the car" - you don't bolt that part straight on the car. You look at how much time and effort it's taken to refine that part and how much more it might take for more optimisations vs the runtime in simulation/windtunnel/durability testings.
If you can get another half a tenth out of it with more work, and you think your car is already fast enough, you'll leave it and let them optimise it more before you run it, whilst your production works on parts that are already far enough into diminishing returns that they're not worth more time and effort.
You'll probably have quite a few parts that show an improvement but are also so sensitive that they sometimes work in sims and sometimes don't, or they're failing your durability sims, if your car is fast, you'll let them have more development time on them to try to mitigate the risks more. If you know your opponent is faster, you'll stick them on the car and risk it.

I don't know why some of you seem to be believe you just come up with an idea for a part and make it, development works nothing like that, it's a continous, massively iterative process.

[Sierra117]

@Jolle: I don't think so. Maintaining mystery has benefit. There's no shooting yourself in the foot unless you're doing it entirely wrong and F1 teams are fairly competent enough to know how much the reward of sandbagging is versus the cost (if any) of it. It's the most basic foundation of warfare - keep the enemy guessing or better yet, totally oblivious to what you're up to. It's no secret though that all the top teams have devised their testing plans in such a way that they're doing both - useful testing and sandbagging at the same time.

[TimmTurbo]

What's the point of sandbagging? Does it make the other teams decide to slack on their development?

two reasons off the top of my head why you might want to sandbag.

1. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on. If you light up the time sheets your car is going to be put under a microscope to try and determine how you did it. If you take it easy, the other teams might not pick up on it till the season starts. That means you will be several races into the season before they can get it on their cars.

2. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on, that might get protested or banned. Just like above, if you can delay when the other teams start copying it, you can build a lead in the early part of the season.


Just look at last year, Mercedes knew Ferrari was doing something different with the ERS early in the season, but they didn't get an update to their system till post Spa.

here is my thoughts

#1 Do you really think Merc is currently not under the "microscope" as they don't throw in quick laps ? I don't think so, every team is permanently in focus. Hired spotters with huge cameras and microphones are all around supplying their employers with detailed pictures and informations. Every single radius of every car is constantly under investigation by all the team`s back offices. I don't think they would sacrifice the advantage of testing the latest and greatest in real world conditions for sandbagging about something they potentially benefit from.

#2 It isn't that easy to copy anything, as most of the air working contours interact with the whole car A-Surfaces. Somebody was giving 3-4 Month for copying a different front wing concept.

Anyway I think that the programs differ from team to team. A big chunk of that especially at the beginning is correlation work to verify the numbers seen in the virtual world. How they are doing it is team specific and dependent on their philosophy. But not giving 100% at any time during the 10 days of winter testing is just not reasonable no matter how dominant you were over the past years. The unknown territory of what happens being on the edge is to big in my opinion. In fact things get even more complex if you are operating on the limit

At the end its just my opinion

[dans79]

It's no secret though that all the top teams have devised their testing plans in such a way that they're doing both - useful testing and sandbagging at the same time.

Exactly, it seems like so many here seem to think its one or the other!

[Sierra117]

It's no secret though that all the top teams have devised their testing plans in such a way that they're doing both - useful testing and sandbagging at the same time.

Exactly, it seems like so many here seem to think its one or the other!

Bruhhh all I care about since the beginning of testing is hearing the cars and now all I want is for the season to start!!! Come on, Melbourne! And to make it even more torturous, Melbourne is just 4 hours away by air!

[dans79]

#1 Do you really think Merc is currently not under the "microscope" as they don't throw in quick laps ? I don't think so, every team is permanently in focus. Hired spotters with huge cameras and microphones are all around supplying their employers with detailed pictures and informations. Every single radius of every car is constantly under investigation by all the team`s back offices. I don't think they would sacrifice the advantage of testing the latest and greatest in real world conditions for sandbagging about something they potentially benefit from.

Think of it more like this, each team has a limited number of resources (employees and time) they can devote to scrutinizing other teams cars without compromising their own development work. Thus they have to spread those resources out across the entire grid. If a team lights up the time sheets, focus is going to be shifted more and more towards that team.

Look at the f1 media right now, a lot of focus is being put on the front wing that Ferrari and Alfa are using because they have put down fast laps. The teams aren't as impulsive as the media, but they are still probably paying more attention to Ferrari right now than they are Mercedes.

[PhillipM]

And the teams get a lot of their photographs and info on rival cars from 3rd party snappers - there's a whole sub-industry around it - thankfully because it means we get loads of great photo's to look at on here - and they are going to be taking more photo's of details on the more interesting/faster cars.

[Phil]

#1 Do you really think Merc is currently not under the "microscope" as they don't throw in quick laps ?

Yes, but not as to which area. When a team “sandbags” it could be to hide or deflect attention from a specific aero part/invention or it could be entirely related to the engine/ERS part. By not showing your true performance (or masking it), opposing teams may be looking a little less closely in the relevant areas.

Unless you propose it’s beneficial to just come out and be as transparent as possible? I would think not.

[Mr.G]

What's the point of sandbagging? Does it make the other teams decide to slack on their development?

two reasons off the top of my head why you might want to sandbag.

1. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on. If you light up the time sheets your car is going to be put under a microscope to try and determine how you did it. If you take it easy, the other teams might not pick up on it till the season starts. That means you will be several races into the season before they can get it on their cars.

2. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on, that might get protested or banned. Just like above, if you can delay when the other teams start copying it, you can build a lead in the early part of the season.


Just look at last year, Mercedes knew Ferrari was doing something different with the ERS early in the season, but they didn't get an update to their system till post Spa.

What about Brown GP? Did they sand bag? No they were fast... And what was the word around? They must be doing glory runs to attract sponsor. Well you know how it ended...

[zibby43]

Here's the thing.

Ferrari are on top of their car right now. It came out of the gate working well. Ferrari should be applauded for that.

Mercedes are still in learning mode. And at the moment, Ferrari is probably a bit ahead.

Does that mean anything for the long-term? Nope.

Ferrari had a rough testing last year. Which turned into getting smoked in Melbourne qualifying, and then still winning the race.

Despite Mercedes' strong testing showing last year, Ferrari began wiping the floor with Mercedes post-Melbourne. The development race happens quickly. And everything on the car changes when you go from perfect 60 degree temperatures in Barcelona to the scorching heat of Bahrain.

[PhillipM]

You know why Brawn ended that way? Because they made a lot of noise about the trick at one end of the car so everybody focused there and nobody realised until later that a big part of the performance was at the other end.