Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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GPR-A
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 16:00
Mercedes have pushed their wing over the limit. And quite badly so, separation of about a third of this length (chord-wise) would be acceptable, this is not. This is also killing diffuser and floor performance, just a bit but enough. Can't imagine this wing would provide the car with required mid-corner-behavior-predictability.
We have good reasons to accept your explanation, versus the conviction of those who have created this with the help of hundreds of professional folks working on multi-million (if not billion) dollar facilities. I truly believe that they have completely ignored such a critical possibility like the one you have explained. Yep.

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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GPR -A wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 07:38
Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 16:00
Mercedes have pushed their wing over the limit. And quite badly so, separation of about a third of this length (chord-wise) would be acceptable, this is not. This is also killing diffuser and floor performance, just a bit but enough. Can't imagine this wing would provide the car with required mid-corner-behavior-predictability.
We have good reasons to accept your explanation, versus the conviction of those who have created this with the help of hundreds of professional folks working on multi-million (if not billion) dollar facilities. I truly believe that they have completely ignored such a critical possibility like the one you have explained. Yep.
Two things, if you have a picture of flowviz and the knowledge that Vanja has then why would you not comment what you see? I looks like the wing is having issues. Of course there could be issues with speeds or them running the wing in an unnatural way to see where separation occurs etc... But the second issue with more interesting meaning, if you cannot say anything against the team's knowledge then what can we discuss on a technical F1 forum?

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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There is some separation on the upper flap. This isn't uncommon, especially with the aggressive angle these flaps are run at on the new, larger wings.

It is not a major problem at this point, at all.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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GPR -A wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 07:38
We have good reasons to accept your explanation, versus the conviction of those who have created this with the help of hundreds of professional folks working on multi-million (if not billion) dollar facilities. I truly believe that they have completely ignored such a critical possibility like the one you have explained. Yep.
Good for ya laddie!
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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GPR -A wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 07:38
Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 16:00
Mercedes have pushed their wing over the limit. And quite badly so, separation of about a third of this length (chord-wise) would be acceptable, this is not. This is also killing diffuser and floor performance, just a bit but enough. Can't imagine this wing would provide the car with required mid-corner-behavior-predictability.
We have good reasons to accept your explanation, versus the conviction of those who have created this with the help of hundreds of professional folks working on multi-million (if not billion) dollar facilities. I truly believe that they have completely ignored such a critical possibility like the one you have explained. Yep.
You forget this is testing. Mercedes is testing. IMO, what Vanja said is 100% right and frankly it's nothing out of the ordinary either. They are pushing the wing to its limit and try to see just with how much they can get away with. That's perfectly normal, as this wing could have been right on the edge in their simulations and now they try to verify that on track.
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Hooray! The bunny ears are back.
"I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it".

ScottB
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Tomtom851 wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 07:31
Why did they show a camouflage image before the tests? I'm going to stay confident.
That camouflage pattern is used on all their EQ road cars during their testing, so I suspect this was a purely marketing endeavour rather than trying to hide anything.

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dren
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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I'm trying to figure out what they are doing exactly. They are placed in the cooling exhaust path right before the flip-ups of the diffuser around the crash structure. I understand what they are doing to the air, but what is its purpose? To help energize the turbulent flow upwards under the crash structure and at the horizontal flaps on the upper diffuser?
Honda!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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PhillipM wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 16:38


That's because traditional bump steer is the only bump steer worth thinking about. Because anything else isn't bump steer.

Suspension extention and compression changing loads on the pushrod is not bump steer.
I have a few cad projects designing suspension and i cant see why you say this.. You sure u wanna make that claim?
Bump steer or roll steer is the term for the tendency of the wheel of a car to steer itself as it moves through the suspension stroke.
The springs are not just there doing nothing they will push back and steer the hub (assuming the psuh rod is mounted on the hub and off-set). The hub doesn't care if its a tie rod or pushrod. Even the article you linked alluded to that... Its just regular shmegular maths /geometry /kinetics that dictate it..
Anyway let's put this topic aside for separate thread.
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Coefficient wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 12:47
Hooray! The bunny ears are back.
From the days of absolute domination. :wink:
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GPR-A
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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turbof1 wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 11:49
GPR -A wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 07:38
Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 16:00
Mercedes have pushed their wing over the limit. And quite badly so, separation of about a third of this length (chord-wise) would be acceptable, this is not. This is also killing diffuser and floor performance, just a bit but enough. Can't imagine this wing would provide the car with required mid-corner-behavior-predictability.
We have good reasons to accept your explanation, versus the conviction of those who have created this with the help of hundreds of professional folks working on multi-million (if not billion) dollar facilities. I truly believe that they have completely ignored such a critical possibility like the one you have explained. Yep.
You forget this is testing. Mercedes is testing. IMO, what Vanja said is 100% right and frankly it's nothing out of the ordinary either. They are pushing the wing to its limit and try to see just with how much they can get away with. That's perfectly normal, as this wing could have been right on the edge in their simulations and now they try to verify that on track.
What I find amusing, is the statements that I have highlighted. How do you define the boundary conditions for them. They are very vague and have arrived without any scientific methods to it (probably based on vague theoretical understandings), whereas it might actually be a desired thing for Mercedes! Who knows. It's not that they can't get an understanding of the flow structures, without running it on track. Now what is the limit? How do we know? The purpose of tightening the sidepod package, is to feed as much high velocity air as possible and in as much uninterrupted manner as possible to the wing. In that way, it might even be desired.

I find it difficult to understand that, if someone like @Vanja can derive a conclusion that Mercedes have pushed the wing over the limt, killing the diffuser and floor performance AND it is bad and it can't provide mid-corner-behavior-predictability, how ignorant could Mercedes folks be, that a thing which so easy for an average normal forum member to understand, is something they haven't despite possessing multi-million resources.

It's a good thing to present the thoughts on what one sees through the car pictures and present the guess work in more humble manner, than to outrightly conclude that it is bad without having done any practical study of that guess work.

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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GPR -A wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 14:39
What I find amusing, is the statements that I have highlighted. How do you define the boundary conditions for them. They are very vague and have arrived without any scientific methods to it (probably based on vague theoretical understandings), whereas it might actually be a desired thing for Mercedes! Who knows. It's not that they can't get an understanding of the flow structures, without running it on track. Now what is the limit? How do we know? The purpose of tightening the sidepod package, is to feed as much high velocity air as possible and in as much uninterrupted manner as possible to the wing. In that way, it might even be desired.

I find it difficult to understand that, if someone like @Vanja can derive a conclusion that Mercedes have pushed the wing over the limt, killing the diffuser and floor performance AND it is bad and it can't provide mid-corner-behavior-predictability, how ignorant could Mercedes folks be, that a thing which so easy for an average normal forum member to understand, is something they haven't despite possessing multi-million resources.

It's a good thing to present the thoughts on what one sees through the car pictures and present the guess work in more humble manner, than to outrightly conclude that it is bad without having done any practical study of that guess work.
Laddie, so many words, so little understanding. But I do appreciate your attention to my statements, you never forget to comment on them. Also, stating things like

probably based on vague theoretical understandings
conclude that it is bad without having done any practical study of that guess work
is just a wee bit degrading towards f1technical.net and it's owner, having directed them to a moderator (and to one of technical writers). It's not my intention to justify my statement, as I see no need to justify facts.

What turbof1 stated, and you haven't read or understood properly, is that this is testing and we don't know if Mercedes pushed this design over the limit intentionally or not. Maybe they weren't sure if there would be as much separation, maybe they wanted to confirm how much there would be - we do not know. What we can say is that said separation on the picture in question is very, very likely too big and over the top. Separation causes wing performance drop and, as a consequence, diffuser and underfloor as well - as these are both very dependent on performance of the other. And these are facts.

As this is going far away from comments about the car, I hope your reply will be only about the car. If there are some other things you wish to discuss with me, please do so via private message.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie