2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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zeph wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 02:40
It seems there is some misunderstanding about what a Technical Director is and/or does. Ross Brawn is probably the right person to explain it (relevant bit starts at 12m26s):

https://youtu.be/81ptN-kmkkc?t=746
He's exactly the wrong person to be explaining this. The Technical Director at Ferrari was always Rory Byrne, simply because he ultimately made all the final decisions regarding the car itself. The car is *all* that matters. In everything. If Brawn is at Ferrari without Byrne Schumacher remains a two-time World Champion. It's that simple.

Ross Brawn was an excellent strategic, trackside manager and thinker and probably Team Principal. Technical Director? No. It was Rory Byrne who was brought out of retirement from Thailand to set up a design office at Maranello post John Barnard.

When you are recruiting people you've got to be very careful you attempt to understand who was really responsible for what.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Unc1eM0nty wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 00:46
Oh I've seen the footage of Newey in his office doodling on the drawing board.............
Nuff said. :roll:

Wynters
Wynters
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Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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munudeges wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 13:05
He's exactly the wrong person to be explaining this. The Technical Director at Ferrari was always Rory Byrne, simply because he ultimately made all the final decisions regarding the car itself. The car is *all* that matters. In everything. If Brawn is at Ferrari without Byrne Schumacher remains a two-time World Champion. It's that simple.

Ross Brawn was an excellent strategic, trackside manager and thinker and probably Team Principal. Technical Director? No. It was Rory Byrne who was brought out of retirement from Thailand to set up a design office at Maranello post John Barnard.

When you are recruiting people you've got to be very careful you attempt to understand who was really responsible for what.
You seem to be confusing the role of Technical Director with the role of Chief Designer and then using circular logic to try and 'prove' your position. If you could just link to the article/video where Byrne explains that he was really (and officially) the Technical Director at Ferrari during the Brawn years, that would probably clear all of this up.

Otherwise, you are simply pointing at things that disprove your point and saying 'See! This proves my point!'.

restless
restless
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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I fail to see why Paddy should STAY.

- 2years as TD
- on 2nd year car is too late for tests
- on 2nd year car is not compatible with rules
- during tests is slowest of all
- at last days of REDUCED tests, parts are so fragile, there is no point of running

Is this Claire's fault or Paddy?
Any TD who made such "mistakes" should go.

Is there a possible buyer for Williams? Internal (family) struggles?
To me it looks like someone from inside is sabotaging in order to lower the company value preparing take over.

kalinka
kalinka
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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bill shoe wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 05:57
Incredible interview. I think the relevant bit begins at 0:02 and goes until roughly 52:35. Ross Brawn is a giant of F1
Agreed. And I was pleasantly surprised, that he mentioned NFL and US sports as reference to what they are trying to do now with Liberty. I always thought that system of leveling up teams as much as possible should be implemented in F1. It's just a good system. Yep, NE is a bulldozer even in that system :) , but still...it's lot more healthy than F1. Top teams have to understand that if they don't give up their high-chair mentality, and winning only by spending more than their rivals, it will kill F1 sooner than later.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Wynters wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 13:22
You seem to be confusing the role of Technical Director with the role of Chief Designer and then using circular logic to try and 'prove' your position. If you could just link to the article/video where Byrne explains that he was really (and officially) the Technical Director at Ferrari during the Brawn years, that would probably clear all of this up.
No I'm not. The buck stops with the Technical Director, whoever that really is regardless of their 'official' job title, and that means the car. Pure and simple. The car is the most important thing in all circumstances. If there were two directions to go in where the car was concerned it would have been Rory Byrne who made that decision and Brawn would been told to pipe down. It was Byrne who was brought in to set up the design office, and that makes the reality at Ferrari very, very clear.

Brawn or anyone else can have an official job title or position all they like, but if they ever have to defer to anyone else in terms of making a solid, final decision regarding the car they simply aren't a Technical Director. It's why so many teams end up in such trouble. The whole 'raising of hands' situation Adrian Newey describes at McLaren in his book immediately springs to mind, which ironically involved Paddy Lowe. You can certainly hear exactly where Brawn gets uncomfortable and muddies the waters when talking about 'car design', 'the car' and the supposed split between his and Byrne's roles.

Otherwise, you are simply pointing at things that disprove your point and saying 'See! This proves my point!'.
Nope. You're attempting to muddy the waters for something that is really quite simple, but that's what a lot of charlatans in Formula 1 teams tend to do to inflate their own importance. Egos are rampant.

EDIT: It's a great pity xpensive isn't around for this interesting discussion. He'd have an absolute field-day with it. :lol:

GrandAxe
GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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munudeges wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 14:13
Wynters wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 13:22
You seem to be confusing the role of Technical Director with the role of Chief Designer and then using circular logic to try and 'prove' your position. If you could just link to the article/video where Byrne explains that he was really (and officially) the Technical Director at Ferrari during the Brawn years, that would probably clear all of this up.
No I'm not. The buck stops with the Technical Director, whoever that really is regardless of their 'official' job title, and that means the car. Pure and simple. The car is the most important thing in all circumstances. If there were two directions to go in where the car was concerned it would have been Rory Byrne who made that decision and Brawn would been told to pipe down. It was Byrne who was brought in to set up the design office, and that makes the reality at Ferrari very, very clear.

Brawn or anyone else can have an official job title or position all they like, but if they ever have to defer to anyone else in terms of making a solid, final decision regarding the car they simply aren't a Technical Director. It's why so many teams end up in such trouble. The whole 'raising of hands' situation Adrian Newey describes at McLaren in his book immediately springs to mind, which ironically involved Paddy Lowe.

Otherwise, you are simply pointing at things that disprove your point and saying 'See! This proves my point!'.
Nope. You're attempting to muddy the waters for something that is really quite simple, but that's what a lot of charlatans in Formula 1 teams tend to do to inflate their own importance. Egos are rampant.

EDIT: It's a great pity xpensive isn't around for this interesting discussion. He'd have an absolute field-day with it. :lol:
This is all sort of off topic and based on hearsay that really doesn't apply to Williams. Neither has any solid evidence been presented to back up wild claims such as; that F1 is full of "charlatans" and that "egos are rampant" - pretty strong words, all without proof. You even have an argument with Ross Brawn over what a technical director should be.

Please lets discuss what is either known or can be proven.

roy928tt
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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If I may chip in, I had always seen Ross Brawn's Ferrari role as Technical Director, and Rory Byrne as Car Designer and I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.What is required, and is vital in all relationships is, trust and communication. Ross needs to determine WHAT is going on the car, Rory HOW it is going on the car. Ross doesn't need to be over the minutiae, Rory will deal with that.

It is all in the personal responsibilities and the relationships between people, people who are confident enough in their own abilities and those around them. With managers who can extract the best from those they manage, different people have different motivations for being their best and I believe that is where the best leaders excel, in matching the motivation to the person.

I was unaware of any of the circumstances surrounding Claire's ascension to power (or Jonny's apprenticeship) but now I'd be sure there are a lot of people on the factory floor who believe they have the wrong Williams as boss and are not motivated to produce their best work. How can you try to build and race an F1 car in that environment, it is hard enough when everyone at least wants to do their best (Minardi). The siblings need to show some leadership and goodwill by combining their talents and ambition (trust and communication) to do what everyone at Williams and those of us who love the sport want to see. Make Williams win again.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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I would move to England and fix this business on a 24 month contract @ 300k/yr.

Im sure there are others out there already that can do the same. They just need to find them.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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I would just like to mention that technical director has to work within the bounds and budgets set by other directors.
Having a free hand is fine as long as you have the authority to give an order and know it will be fulfilled, not sent back for 'adjustment' or 're-costing' then get a mail from the contractor asking for clarification on cost overruns previously agreed with the company.

Don't rush this rush order yet you still have not finished rushing the last rush order.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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GrandAxe wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 14:55
This is all sort of off topic and based on hearsay that really doesn't apply to Williams.
I didn't post the Ross Brawn interview. It very much does apply though. They've picked poorly as it turns out, for a very long time, and it is certainly interesting to examine why that might be.

Neither has any solid evidence been presented to back up wild claims such as; that F1 is full of "charlatans" and that "egos are rampant" - pretty strong words, all without proof.
You can choose to believe in fairies if you like, but the real world, especially where there is a lot of money and a lot of attention and smoke blowing to be had, is full of such things. It's why McLaren and Williams are where they are.

You even have an argument with Ross Brawn over what a technical director should be.
"Rory designed the car........." :wink:

Please lets discuss what is either known or can be proven.
Translation: Let's discuss what I feel comfortable with.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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It was quite a revealing and amusing interview, but not for the reasons many would think.

bill shoe wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 05:57
They won 4 championships in a row and could have won a couple more if not for the FIA tire meddling.
They won at least one championship in 2003 purely because of FIA tyre meddling when Bridgestone quite clearly weren't up to the job, and they really weren't from there on anyway. The 2005 car quite clearly wasn't up to the job regardless. It is quite funny to hear him talk there given the assistance provided to Ferrari by the FIA, but it does let slip the reason behind a lot of Ferrari's performance during that period - tyres.

I also had to laugh at how he described what happened in 1994 where he claims they weren't doing anything dodgy with their fuel flow because they had fuel already in the car. Sadly, the Hockenheim fire definitively puts paid to that one. Strangely, he neglects to mention that..............

Brawn? It depends on whether you define something as a hole or a slot. To go down that route you had to have some steer from the FIA that that was going to be OK with it because the whole car is built around it. That's all politics and has little to do with anything technical. If you manage to get something that generates a whole lot more downforce than anything else that others believe to be illegal you're onto a winner. He does later let slip it was a false situation which Mercedes had bought into. This was obviously after Mercedes had purchased the team and he'd made a nice packet out of it. One wonders if Mercedes then realised that they had been conned. This was talked about extensively on the infamous Mercedes thread. It was like déjà vu watching that video. :D

He's very eloquent, as he always is, but the double-speak that he hides behind is all there, and you've got to laugh as it's all part of the game.

He explains how Toto came in and gave a couple strong presentations to the board and convinced them to either "pull out" or "go for it". The result of Toto's presentation was that Mercedes quickly upped their game to the 900 people they have now.
Toto's presentation? I thought Ross was Team Principal there? :? :D

Ross quit because he determined he'd failed Mercedes and then he decided there were too many cooks in the kitchen.
He's right on that one. A few of us, again on that infamous Mercedes thread, mentioned that repeatedly at the time, and that scenario is why so many teams in Formula 1 still get themselves into trouble. The problem for Ross is he turned out to be one of those surplus cooks. :D

This is what Williams really needs right now.
Quite the contrary. It is a warning. You've got to give due credit, exactly where it is due, but there are an awful lot of people in Formula 1 who inflate their own importance. When a team like Williams are recruiting they need to be aware of and fight against that. In a top team like Mercedes or Ferrari, where there are a lot of people and a lot of resources to throw at things, you can often hide until the pressure of bad performances really hits.

"I knew when things didn't smell right." Touché, Ross. Williams are also going to have to apply that same logic, and perhaps Jonny Williams is the only person who can ultimately do it. :D

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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munudeges wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 17:29
GrandAxe wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 14:55
This is all sort of off topic and based on hearsay that really doesn't apply to Williams.
I didn't post the Ross Brawn interview. It very much does apply though. They've picked poorly as it turns out, for a very long time, and it is certainly interesting to examine why that might be.

Neither has any solid evidence been presented to back up wild claims such as; that F1 is full of "charlatans" and that "egos are rampant" - pretty strong words, all without proof.
You can choose to believe in fairies if you like, but the real world, especially where there is a lot of money and a lot of attention and smoke blowing to be had, is full of such things. It's why McLaren and Williams are where they are.

You even have an argument with Ross Brawn over what a technical director should be.
"Rory designed the car........." :wink:

Please lets discuss what is either known or can be proven.
Translation: Let's discuss what I feel comfortable with.
This is Ross Brawn's CV:

Technical Director Formula One Group (2017–present)
Technical Director/team principal Ferrari (1991–2006)
Technical Director/team principal Honda (2008)
Technical Director/team principal Brawn GP (2009)
Technical Director/team principal Mercedes (2010–2013)

Anyone arguing that they know more than Ross Brawn what the role of technical director involves is clearly on another planet. Just as is anyone who claims Rory Byrne has ever been a technical director, rather than designer and consultant.

Please leave off-topic nonsense aside. This should be about Paddy Lowe and the Williams team, instead of rumours and things plucked from thin air.

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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roy928tt wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 16:45
If I may chip in, I had always seen Ross Brawn's Ferrari role as Technical Director, and Rory Byrne as Car Designer and I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.What is required, and is vital in all relationships is, trust and communication. Ross needs to determine WHAT is going on the car, Rory HOW it is going on the car. Ross doesn't need to be over the minutiae, Rory will deal with that.
Who is senior to who? That's the crux of the matter here.

Sooner or later you will have a disagreement on technical direction with the car and there has to be one person who can ultimately clear the impasse to provide clarity. Otherwise you get compromises, bad decisions and poor performances. Design-by-committee F1 cars just don't work. When the brown stuff hits the wall, as it most certainly has with Williams, you can afford this even less.

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FW17
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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So any news from the team that both cars are ready?