petition to the FIA (Spa 2008 result)

[timbo]

sorry.... glitchy

[modbaraban]

Should I start a petition against any further petitions that would be against the counter-petition just in case?

[Belatti]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20746.html

[Project Four]

Like Schumacher wasn't penalized twice in 2006 and like new points system wasn't deviced to get others closer to Ferrari.

Assume that you mean Monaco where Schumacher parked his car at Rascasse during qualifying in a deliberate attempt to prevent Alonso from taking pole position and Hungary where Schumacher passed Kubica after the session had been red flagged. These are two very weak cases if you raised these to compare how Schumacher has been punished against what happened to Hamilton at the Belgium GP.

The other controversy at Hungary was Flavio Briatorie (Renault team chief, whom were contesting the championship with Ferrari at the time) accusing FIA of race-fixing after their sudden banning of the previously legal mass-dampers. Which, comes back to my point, it is wrong to say that McLaren have developed a FIA conspiracy theory as strange decisions against Ferrari’s main championship rivals have been going on for many years and people / teams have raised concern about these decisions.

[TRICKLE69]

First of all I dont know what the problem is. Hamilton clearly gained an advatage by cutting the chicanne. Yes he let Kimi pass but he was right next to him, when he let him by. What if there was a gravel trap there?? Where would Hamilton be now?? WITH NO POINTS!!! All of you who signed the petition are a bunch of bumbling idiots with no reguard for reality. HE CUT THE CHICANNE, GAINED AN ADVANTAGE BY DOING SO AND WAS PENALISED JUSTLY!!! Get your heads out of your rear ends and see the situation for what it is!!!!!

[axle]

First of all I dont know what the problem is. Hamilton clearly gained an advatage by cutting the chicanne. Yes he let Kimi pass but he was right next to him, when he let him by. What if there was a gravel trap there?? Where would Hamilton be now?? WITH NO POINTS!!! All of you who signed the petition are a bunch of bumbling idiots with no reguard for reality. HE CUT THE CHICANNE, GAINED AN ADVANTAGE BY DOING SO AND WAS PENALISED JUSTLY!!! Get your heads out of your rear ends and see the situation for what it is!!!!!

If it was a gravel trap he would have stayed where he was and Kimi would have crashed into him...2 cars out for nothing. He was clearly alongside (nigh on infront) and able to take the corner correctly if it wasn't for Kimi's positioning, so taking the escape route and giving back the position is clearly doing enough.

As for us all being bumbling idiots (not that I've signed), actually I think you'll find that a huge proportion of the people involved in F1 think the penalty was wrong. Being a drive through penalty which by it's nature is un-appealable, it must surely say something that the FIA are going to hear an appeal?!

[mike]

i think alot of people don fully understand the definition of advantage in racing
if lewis didnt cut the chicane he wouldnt have the chance to overtake kimi at the hairpin. and since he did cut the chicane he did gain an advantage regardless of the speed in which he cross the start/finish line.
i other thing also questions me is that Mclaren claims that they have asked the stewards twice on wheather lewis conduct himself reasonably. my question is that is this before or after lewis overtake kimi.
lewis may not have gain a position cutting the chicane but he did gain an unfair advantage so that he could overtake kimi in the next corner.
If wat lewis did was right then basically we are saying that its ok to cut corners as long as you dont gain a position out of it, which subsequently mean that last long as you not passing people cutting chicanes is a righteous move, this would have make the monza qualifying quiet interesting

[Tehillim]

i think alot of people don fully understand the definition of advantage in racing
if lewis didnt cut the chicane he wouldnt have the chance to overtake kimi at the hairpin. and since he did cut the chicane he did gain an advantage regardless of the speed in which he cross the start/finish line.
i other thing also questions me is that Mclaren claims that they have asked the stewards twice on wheather lewis conduct himself reasonably. my question is that is this before or after lewis overtake kimi.
lewis may not have gain a position cutting the chicane but he did gain an unfair advantage so that he could overtake kimi in the next corner.
If wat lewis did was right then basically we are saying that its ok to cut corners as long as you dont gain a position out of it, which subsequently mean that last long as you not passing people cutting chicanes is a righteous move, this would have make the monza qualifying quiet interesting

No it doesn't. If any driver cuts the course the stewards look to see if he beat his fastest lap (sector?) time, but the rules are rather lax and they usually let drivers cut the same corner a couple of times before issuing a warning / penalty. If a driver were seen to straight-line a chicane without even attempting to take the corner he'd be penalised on the first occasion. Hamilton tried to take the corner, he fought Raikkonen through the first half of the chicane but was squeezed out at the second part and took the escape route. This is not an especially rare occurrence, the rule then is that drivers should give back the position, this is what Hamilton did, to the satisfaction of Charlie Whiting. 'Advantage' as you are using it has never been a concept in F1, how would drivers been expected to gauge and fully repay your definition of 'advantage'? It would be an absurd rule. Moreover, there are so many occasions when drivers can be argued to have gained an advantage by cutting the course (e.g. Kimi around Pouhon last race, but more generally at the start of races, going off track to run around an accident rather than joining those queueing to pass by on track) that we'd be getting protests nearly every race!

[axle]

i think alot of people don fully understand the definition of advantage in racing
if lewis didnt cut the chicane he wouldnt have the chance to overtake kimi at the hairpin. and since he did cut the chicane he did gain an advantage regardless of the speed in which he cross the start/finish line.
i other thing also questions me is that Mclaren claims that they have asked the stewards twice on wheather lewis conduct himself reasonably. my question is that is this before or after lewis overtake kimi.
lewis may not have gain a position cutting the chicane but he did gain an unfair advantage so that he could overtake kimi in the next corner.
If wat lewis did was right then basically we are saying that its ok to cut corners as long as you dont gain a position out of it, which subsequently mean that last long as you not passing people cutting chicanes is a righteous move, this would have make the monza qualifying quiet interesting

You can't prove a "what if" (ie what if Hamilton took the corner properly). So you can't say he couldn't have out dragged Kimi...the fact is that Lewis was a lot faster the Kimi at that point in the race. No-one know what Lewis could have done if Kimi had allowed him to take the corner properly, and guesses are not facts.
Fact: Lewis was in front when entering the final corner.
Fact: Lewis couldn't take the corner properly because it would have led to a crash with Kimi.
Fact: Lewis had far better grip/traction
Fact: Lewis let Kimi back past him - the telemetry doesn't lie.
Fact: Kimi braked early for the hairpin for turn 1.
Fact: Kimi left the door wide open at turn 1.
Fact: The Race Director, who's opinion is not law but highly regarded, twice told McLaren that the pass was "ok" and that Lewis need not let Kimi back through again...as McLaren have said they would have if they were given any indication.

Quite honestly, I don't see what Lewis is supposed to do when the leader is driving Miss Daisy.

[timbo]

Fact: Lewis was in front when entering the final corner.

On the outside, which is disadvantage. Kimi had better position to enter the corner.

Fact: Lewis couldn't take the corner properly because it would have led to a crash with Kimi.

He could lifted or braked or taken another shortcut. In fact there's plenty of grass inside the chicane, he obviosly chose asphalt.

Fact: Lewis had far better grip/traction

Agreed, however he couldn't pass Kimi on the entire run fron Stavelot thru Pouchon to the bus-stop.

Fact: Lewis let Kimi back past him - the telemetry doesn't lie.

6.7 kph difference doesn't mean much. In fact it is about the difference the fastest and slowest cars have. What is important is Lewis' throttle data which are yet to be seen.

Fact: Kimi braked early for the hairpin for turn 1. Fact: Kimi left the door wide open at turn 1.

Agreed, that was because of conditions, but he braked early before bus-stop too. Also it has nothing to do to the advantage. If Kimi's engine blew up on that straight it would still be same situation.

Fact: The Race Director, who's opinion is not law but highly regarded, twice told McLaren that the pass was "ok" and that Lewis need not let Kimi back through again...as McLaren have said they would have if they were given any indication.

Question how did they asked twice and get an answer twice while Kimi and Lewis drove frome buss-stop to La Source?

Quite honestly, I don't see what Lewis is supposed to do when the leader is driving Miss Daisy.

Just wait for another single turn.

[Vitesse]

show me something successful by petitiononline.

Emotional people.

50000 emotional people?

[myurr]

Fact: Lewis was in front when entering the final corner.

On the outside, which is disadvantage. Kimi had better position to enter the corner.

Fact: Lewis couldn't take the corner properly because it would have led to a crash with Kimi.

He could lifted or braked or taken another shortcut. In fact there's plenty of grass inside the chicane, he obviosly chose asphalt.

Fact: Lewis had far better grip/traction

Agreed, however he couldn't pass Kimi on the entire run fron Stavelot thru Pouchon to the bus-stop.

Fact: Lewis let Kimi back past him - the telemetry doesn't lie.

6.7 kph difference doesn't mean much. In fact it is about the difference the fastest and slowest cars have. What is important is Lewis' throttle data which are yet to be seen.

Fact: Kimi braked early for the hairpin for turn 1. Fact: Kimi left the door wide open at turn 1.

Agreed, that was because of conditions, but he braked early before bus-stop too. Also it has nothing to do to the advantage. If Kimi's engine blew up on that straight it would still be same situation.

Fact: The Race Director, who's opinion is not law but highly regarded, twice told McLaren that the pass was "ok" and that Lewis need not let Kimi back through again...as McLaren have said they would have if they were given any indication.

Question how did they asked twice and get an answer twice while Kimi and Lewis drove frome buss-stop to La Source?

Quite honestly, I don't see what Lewis is supposed to do when the leader is driving Miss Daisy.

Just wait for another single turn.

Okay I'll bite. Had Lewis tried to slow down further in the corner there is a chance he would have locked up and hit Kimi, or bumped over the curb and either damaged his car or hit Kimi. Don't forget that both drivers had already locked up into the corner and the momentum at that point was still pushing Lewis out wide - he wasn't quite straight when he took to the escape road.

But hypothetically had he been able to slow down and move behind Kimi, it's possible that he could have followed nose to tail, as downforce at that point would have been negligable anyway and his mechanical grip was vastly superior.

And let us not forget that it was Kimi who was pushing Lewis off the circuit at the time - he could have chosen to leave him room. Instead they fought it out like the racing drivers that most of us want them to be.

The 6.7kmph difference is significant because Lewis was able to more than make that up just after the start finish line, after moving round behind Kimi. Had he purely followed Kimi he would have been drag racing him for almost twice the distance, from a position hardly any further behind.

And they asked twice AFTER the move - so Lewis was told immediately by the team to let Kimi past, he did so, and the team then twice went to Whiting to check he was happy with the move. Twice he said he was.

Just waiting for another turn should not be the F1 drivers way - I think that most of us want the gladiatorial fights of old rather than the current "let just wait till they pit" attitude.

If you want a thorough demolition of your position from a fairly independent journalist, read Mark Hughes opinion on what happened here: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... s&id=43892

[timbo]

If you want a thorough demolition of your position from a fairly independent journalist, read Mark Hughes opinion on what happened here: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... s&id=43892

Yeah... "relatively" independent. How can ITV journalist's view be "independent"? Look at titles!

Watch all the best features from ITV's Spa shows, including Hamilton interview

ITV is Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton....

And comparing Massa's incident to Hamilton's is bullsh*t - it was pit crew that caused Massa's incident, not a driver himself!

[myurr]

If you want a thorough demolition of your position from a fairly independent journalist, read Mark Hughes opinion on what happened here: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... s&id=43892

Yeah... "relatively" independent. How can ITV journalist's view be "independent"? Look at titles!

Watch all the best features from ITV's Spa shows, including Hamilton interview

ITV is Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton....

And comparing Massa's incident to Hamilton's is bullsh*t - it was pit crew that caused Massa's incident, not a driver himself!

Sorry but in Massa's case the rules themselves state that it is the competitors responsibility.

And I would normally view Mark Hughes as ever so slightly pro-ferrari in his writings if anything. Tends to idol worship them.

And as a final counterpoint, whilst ITV can be a bit Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton, you'd have to admit to being a bit Ferrari, Ferrari, Ferrari in your comments.

[timbo]

And as a final counterpoint, whilst ITV can be a bit Hamilton, Hamilton, Hamilton, you'd have to admit to being a bit Ferrari, Ferrari, Ferrari in your comments.

Yes, I admit I am Ferrari fan (but after so many wins I feel a bit relaxed). However, I accepted all FIA's desicions - like leaving McLaren drivers competing in championship after proving espionage, penalising Schumacher at Rascasse, implementation of common ECU provided by sertain team.
And that "counterpoint" of yours is already assuming. You treat this situation like a Ferrari vs McLaren thing, which is highly subjective. I remember reading comment on grandprix.com on how FIA can restore it's credibility by revoking LH's penalty. Not by showing their resoning, further investigating the accident or anything.

Most of all I believe that the atmosphere that LH is placed in McLaren works against him, which is pityful.