CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post anything that doesn't belong in any other forum, including gaming and topics unrelated to motorsport. Site specific discussions should go in the site feedback forum.

Would "Higgs boson" particle be discovered in CERN ?

Yes , for sure
4
25%
No , greater energy level is required
4
25%
Probably
8
50%
 
Total votes: 16

bar555
bar555
10
Joined: 08 Aug 2007, 18:13
Location: Greece - Athens

CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

The European Organisation for Nuclear Research, known as CERN, is the world's largest particle physics laboratory. Its scientists began an experiment on Wednesday to re-enact the "Big Bang" that created the universe.

Scientists major goal is to discover "Higgs boson" or the so-called "The god particle" ,




http://www.todayonline.com/articles/275007.asp
http://www.n-tv.de/1021458.html
http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=1916
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080910/ ... 1ccfa.html
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Cu ... 2471028188
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN
Last edited by bar555 on 11 Sep 2008, 07:13, edited 1 time in total.
Future is like walking into past......

Blog : http://formula1techandart.wordpress.com/
Twitter :http://twitter.com/bar555onF1

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

I was watching a report on that earlier this morning, lucklily they had a scientist to explain what it did exactly in layman's terms (not that I needed it or anything, right? :lol: ).

Pretty outrageous, although I hope that it actually comes to prove useful, or else all of the resources put into it might have been unecessary, with world poverty and poor health being a bigger issue at the moment. And imagine how many people they could have put through school around the world with all of that money!
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

nae
nae
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

hammer to crack a nut technology
but still pretty damn fascinating

the detection equipment must be stunning
the speed of it all, the scale of it all

the fact i like is it laps the 27 km 'ring'
11,000 times a second :shock: :shock:
..?

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

I once heard an analogy where exploring this kind of science is like throwing a piano down a flight of stairs, and recreating how the piano worked based on the sound of it breaking up.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

nae
nae
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

or trying to suss the firing order of an engine by smashing 2 cars together
..?

Michiba
Michiba
4
Joined: 28 Apr 2008, 08:58

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

mx_tifosi wrote:I was watching a report on that earlier this morning, lucklily they had a scientist to explain what it did exactly in layman's terms (not that I needed it or anything, right? :lol: ).

Pretty outrageous, although I hope that it actually comes to prove useful, or else all of the resources put into it might have been unecessary, with world poverty and poor health being a bigger issue at the moment. And imagine how many people they could have put through school around the world with all of that money!
I don't mean to start trouble, but this is a bit ironic considering that you are an F1 fan.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

What calls my attention is the technology developed for the LHC.

Sure, we can learn why things have weight, we can even learn what's the universe made of, but in the process we can learn something useful for racing, and that, my friends, that is what is really relevant about the machine.

Black holes devoring Europe? That's peanuts compared with McLaren losing the championship. Apparently, that’s what would be a major tragedy (judging by the display of emotions in other threads), because losing Switzerland to a cosmic catastrophe would ONLY elliminate Sauber and they’re out of the championship race right now. Fortunately, the machine is not located in Maranello or Woking. Phew. :)

Now, the LHC managing team have overbudgeted the thingie by 400%. On a side note, it seems they could run the Iraq war and do it as well as the americans, but I digress.

So, to save some money, the LHC uses the LEP tunnel (Large Electron-Positron Collider).

It's exactly like modern cars running at Monza: the kinetic energy you have is too large for the kinks in the track.

So, where comes the "downforce" needed for following the curves? Take in account that there is no chicane-cutting allowed in this case, I’m afraid.

Proton Synchrotron in yellow, Super Proton Synchrotron (SPS) in blue, LEP in red.
Image

Notice the increase in the length of the oval (ehem, I mean, the tunnel). BTW, the SPS is “the pits”: it’s this place where the particles are created, stored and then delivered or injected into the “main track”.

However, you have particles with more energy and they are using the same “San Marinesque” old track. What’s the key?

The key are the magnets. The SPS used magnets that developed a little under 2 teslas. They were developed during the 60's at the Rutherford Lab in England and used for the first time in the american Tevatron, in 1987.

Nowadays you can find 2 teslas magnets in MR equipment (medical scanners), but the LHC needs four times that strength, or over 8 T, or almost 100,000 times the Earth magnetic field. An MR machine has a couple of magnets, the LHC needs 5,000 of them.

The LHC magnets are over 14 meters long, with an inner diameter of 56 mm (2 inches or so). The coil windings MUST not move, as any inner friction would develop hot spots or "quenches", that would destroy the superconductivity they need to work.

LHC magnets have to be positioned with extreme precision. The black horizontal bar is being used for that positioning.
Image

So, you need extremely rigid wire that's superconducting. The windings of the magnets are made of niobium-titanium wire.

AFAIK, almost all the ni-ti wire in the world is produced at one shop: Wah Chang (Great Development), a company founded in 1918 by K.C. Li, a famous mining engineer, at the tungsten mines in China. Nowadays, the ni-ti wire facility of this company is located in Huntsville, Alabama.

Welding two LHC magnets together. I have no idea what kind of welding equipment is this.
Image

To get beyond the Tevatron, LHC magnets will be operated at 1.9 K above absolute zero, that is almost 300 C below room temperature. This unusually low limit puts new demands on cable quality and coil assembly. European industry is already delivering cables that can carry 15,000 amps at 1.9 K and withstand forces which build up to hundreds of tons per metre in the coils as the field rises. The structural requirements of the "end caps" magnets are incredible.

Atlas end cap magnet being transported. This thing has to support the weight of several lorries to work, but bending as much as FIA stewards under pressure
Image

Now, what kind of electric motors can we develop with these things? (hi, GreenPower Dude!) That, I die to see.
Ciro

nae
nae
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

found a web cam showing some of the details
http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
..?

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

nae wrote:found a web cam showing some of the details
http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
that was great [-o<

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

Michiba wrote:
mx_tifosi wrote:Pretty outrageous, although I hope that it actually comes to prove useful, or else all of the resources put into it might have been unecessary, with world poverty and poor health being a bigger issue at the moment. And imagine how many people they could have put through school around the world with all of that money!
I don't mean to start trouble, but this is a bit ironic considering that you are an F1 fan.
Why would you start trouble with that? :)

Although to be honest I do believe that Formula One is a total and complete waste of money, but I love it regardless. But to each his own, if people want to spend 300m on two race cars per season than so be it, and if someone else wants to donate 100K for student scholarships... than so be it.

Finding the 'Higgs boson' would probably be an amazing accomplishment for all of those physicists around the world, if that makes them happy great.

In case my point was missed, the irony of spending so much on such a unecessary finding is amazing considering all of the problems around the entire world. Floods, earthquakes, poor nutrition, poor/lack-of education, and many more issues of the like affect millions of people day in and day out, but, we do have to find that 'Higgs boson'.
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

MattF1
MattF1
0
Joined: 23 Jul 2008, 00:10

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

Looking forward to the results, the LHC will tell us many secrets that the universe holds - and show us the way to far more discoveries in all fields of science. That is why it is necessary.

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

mx_tifosi wrote:
Michiba wrote:
mx_tifosi wrote:Pretty outrageous, although I hope that it actually comes to prove useful, or else all of the resources put into it might have been unecessary, with world poverty and poor health being a bigger issue at the moment. And imagine how many people they could have put through school around the world with all of that money!
I don't mean to start trouble, but this is a bit ironic considering that you are an F1 fan.
Why would you start trouble with that? :)

Although to be honest I do believe that Formula One is a total and complete waste of money, but I love it regardless. But to each his own, if people want to spend 300m on two race cars per season than so be it, and if someone else wants to donate 100K for student scholarships... than so be it.

Finding the 'Higgs boson' would probably be an amazing accomplishment for all of those physicists around the world, if that makes them happy great.

In case my point was missed, the irony of spending so much on such a unecessary finding is amazing considering all of the problems around the entire world. Floods, earthquakes, poor nutrition, poor/lack-of education, and many more issues of the like affect millions of people day in and day out, but, we do have to find that 'Higgs boson'.
Yes but money alone wont fix those problems just like its not money alone that will find the higgs. And for all we know finidng the higgs may reveal something to us that will allow us to solve all of those other problems. Or more than likely allow us to create better bombs :wink:

Michiba
Michiba
4
Joined: 28 Apr 2008, 08:58

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

The higgs boson is just the centerpeice for what they're looking for, ie. what the tell the media etc. The media especially love it because it's colloquially known as the 'god particle'. But that is not all they are looking for. Saying that would be like saying the Hubble was designed to look at 1 star in the whole universe.

and with regards to F1, perhaps they will find a new energy source to power cars. I'm not well clued into all the physics, but I did hear something about developing fusion power

Miguel
Miguel
2
Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

I'm late into the party!

I voted "no, we need higher energies" just to bother our HEP (high energy physics) colleagues. I was never into it. Some say it's possible to find the Higgs at the first attempt, although that seems slightly anticlimatic. Also, working at such a high energy regime will mostly serve for a theoretical guy to tell his office colleagues "I told you so". Well, it will also shed light in the symmetry breaking that happened in the big bang, but that is sooo much less fun. Also, what will happen if they don't find the Higgs? IMHO, that would be bad for grants worldwide and to the prestige of science, although theoretical physicists will get a brand new toy to play with. New field, unexplored territory, we just need a new theory!

BTW: To everybody concerned about the money spent into the LHC, do you know there's a more expensive project going on? Of course, it won't devour the earth in a black hole, or evaporate ourselves after finding we live on a metastable vacuum (another "possibility"), or create strange matter (i.e. a mix of Ron Dennis and Flavio Briattore) and so on but... hey, we got a flag in the moon!. Well, I'm looking for a quote but unsuccessfully, so you'll have to put a grain of salt when I say that the ITER and the ISS are both more expensive than the LHC.

Now, seriously, the engineering inside this scientific project is just amazing. From the supermagnets (8 tesla!!! whoaaa!!!) to the supercooled* facilities. I'd bet more than half the earth's helium is now in the CERN. Of course, I don't want to estimate the energy required to keep the magnets at 1.7K.

* Supercooled in a non-strict sense. Strictly speaking, supercooling is cooling something beyond its phase boundaries, such as liquid water below 0ºC.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

andartop
andartop
14
Joined: 08 Jun 2008, 22:01
Location: London, UK

Re: CERN - The Large Hadron Collider starts up

Post

there are other, even more expensive experiments going on, ie the whole "war on terror" extravaganza, or "how to use fear to obliterate individuals' freedom". local councils in the uk are now being accused of using anti-terror laws in order to check people's bins and fine them if they find that they throw away recyclable materials (no, really).
compared to this silliness (and many others), i think CERN is a very good investment for mankind. they might not find the god particle today or tomorrow, but i think we ll just have to wait for at least a couple of decades before we decide whether it was worth it or not.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft