Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[roon]

larger charger

[Andres125sx]

Will electric vehicles be really useful for environment ?

No, never. I can´t see winds needing a car to move around

[Andres125sx]

but I haven't seen conclusively any reports that show EV is better/worse for the environment than ICE.

Really?

I´ve seen several, stating only when 100% of electricity comes from a coal plants, then emissions are comparable to ICEs. Any other scenario, and EVs are less harmfull for environement, wich actually means in 90% of countries EVs are better than ICE, everywhere except India and countries wich only rely on carbon.

But, those reports usually are extremelly biased, and try to show a scenario where electric vehicles pollute similar to ICE. Their problem is they have to mention the comparison is done with coal plants, a detail many people miss, but makes a whole world of difference. Most countries produce below 50% electricity from coal, wich means in those countries EVs pollute less than a half what a ICE pollute. In Spain it´s only 14.5% of the total, wich means you need 7 EVs to pollute similar to a single ICE

Also, people should look at the bigger picture, renewable energies are being increased constantly, so electricity is greener each day, and at some point it will be 100% clean. ICE pollute today, pollute tomorrow and will pollute in next century, period, so IMHO it´s absolutely absurd comparing EVs and ICEs, even if EVs are way too expensive today, they´re not good for our wallets (yet), but they´re undoubtedly better for the environement

[henry]

Also, people should look at the bigger picture, renewable energies are being increased constantly, so electricity is greener each day, and at some point it will be 100% clean. ICE pollute today, pollute tomorrow and will pollute in next century, period, s....

This forms some of the reasoning that has me looking at the potential that my next vehicle will be an EV. I typically keep my cars for 8 or 9 years, so what I buy next will be subject to changes in energy mix and legislation over that sort of period. I can already see that some places I currently visit will ban my Euro 5 diesel in a couple of years. Those bans will exist whether I have seen credible reports or not. And there are likely to be more such bans, not less.

[Tommy Cookers]

... renewable energies are being increased constantly, so electricity is greener each day, and at some point it will be 100% clean....

half of renewable electricity ie woodburning is fake - it produces relatively more global warming than coal burning does
and more urban particulate pollution than cars do
electricity will always be closer to 0% clean than 100% clean

the main source of CO2 pollution is of course fossil fuel burning for heating

[Greg Locock]

There have been many studies done at both national and state level for whether EVs are less carbon intensive to run than IC cars. There is no one size fits all argument. In Australia, for example, a Tasmanian EV is fairly low in CO2 emissions. In Queensland, it is rather high.

If you think this is important, then you need to do your own research. If you don't think it's important then don't bother, buy an EV because you like the image, or buy an IC because of whatever.

Personally a GM Volt was probably quite a good answer for me, but the marketplace has correctly decided that lugging two complete powertrains around wasn't worth it.

[Andres125sx]

the main source of CO2 pollution is of course fossil fuel burning for heating

How I this related to viability of EVs?

... renewable energies are being increased constantly, so electricity is greener each day, and at some point it will be 100% clean....

half of renewable electricity ie woodburning is fake - it produces relatively more global warming than coal burning does
and more urban particulate pollution than cars do
electricity will always be closer to 0% clean than 100% clean

Bioenergy is a 5%, so if you like to assume it will be there forever then electricity will be closer to 95% clean, but saying it will be closer to 0% sorry but is utter nosense...

[Giblet]

10 years ago I had zero friends with solar or electric cars.

I also knew nobody making their own fuel, or burning their own coal to produce power.

Now I have two friends with solar arrays who charge their own vehicles AND sell surplus power back to the municipality.

[djos]

10 years ago I had zero friends with solar or electric cars.

I also knew nobody making their own fuel, or burning their own coal to produce power.

Now I have two friends with solar arrays who charge their own vehicles AND sell surplus power back to the municipality.

I don't have an electric car yet, but I do have a nice 5.4kW solar array on my roof.

[Big Tea]

Not strictly on topic, but related, as you buy what you like. After trying an electric a couple of weeks back, I think that as soon as I can be sure the charging part will suit me, I think I would change irrespective of any other reason, except cost, within reason.

I think the big switch will be when it is convenient more than any other reason, including environmental

[Andres125sx]

Not strictly on topic, but related, as you buy what you like. After trying an electric a couple of weeks back, I think that as soon as I can be sure the charging part will suit me, I think I would change irrespective of any other reason, except cost, within reason.

I think the big switch will be when it is convenient more than any other reason, including environmental

Agree, I love electrics, anything, from rc planes or drones to cars and bikes because of simplicity, lack of nosense noise (any vehicle make some noise, people tend to think it´s only the motor/engine, but that´s not true, for example I love the noise of the fast spinning prop on my electric rc planes, and they´re far from quiet), reliability wich is on a different league, and overal ease of use.

Also, range is far from a problem for me, as I rarely do any trip longer than 100km. Actually my bike (aprilia pegaso 650) has a poor range of 170km or even less, but that has never been a problem. A car with 200-300km range will be more than enough. The problem obviously is if you need 1 hour to charge. But what people don´t usually notice is you don´t need to fully charge your battery to continue the journey, with 15minutes of normal charging, or 5 minutes of fast charging, is more than enough to reach your destiny (in 95% of scenarios). For travelling this is a bigger problem obviously, but you can always rent a car for those sporadic travels and even rent a car wich suit your travel better (familiar, SUV...)

The only con wich is still stopping me from purchasing is price. Some manufacturers sell cars without battery, wich you rent to them. The prices they rent batteries depend on the distance/year you do, but they are pretty similar to what fuel cost for that distance!!! Add to that electicity costs to charge it...

Not sure if lithium batteries pricing can be lowered to the point EVs are really viable economically, not even if they´re sold in same number as ICEs... but I´m really eager to reach that point

[Tommy Cookers]

there is 3 times as much carbon in the biosphere (in living and dead material) as in the atmosphere as CO2
changes in land use will increase release of biosphere carbon as atmospheric methane - 25 times as warming as CO2
the huge UK burning of American wetland wood pellets is doing this - because the trees aren't replaced like-for-like
according to the experts (on my TV as Drax is my local GW-capacity generator) making this worse than coal burning

bumped this as a cue ...

[Just_a_fan]

The answer is to use less. That's going to require social engineering rather than mechanical engineering, however.

[Andres125sx]

the main source of CO2 pollution is of course fossil fuel burning for heating

How I this related to viability of EVs?

half of renewable electricity ie woodburning is fake - it produces relatively more global warming than coal burning does
and more urban particulate pollution than cars do
electricity will always be closer to 0% clean than 100% clean

Bioenergy is a 5%, so if you like to assume it will be there forever then electricity will be closer to 95% clean, but saying it will be closer to 0% sorry but is utter nosense...

Andres - how are your claims of EV environmental benefit (to which I was responding) on the topic of EV viability ?

I was responding to someone who talked about EV impact compared to ICEs, so I simply pointed electricity comes from very different sources so the average on most countries makes EV less polluting than ICEs. Then you jumped to house heating as that´s very polluting too, even more, agree, but that´s not the topic

there is 3 times as much carbon in the biosphere (in living and dead material) as in the atmosphere as CO2
changes in land use will increase release of biosphere carbon as atmospheric methane - 25 times as warming as CO2
the huge UK burning of American wetland wood pellets is doing this - because the trees aren't replaced like-for-like
according to the experts (on my TV as Drax is my local GW-capacity generator) making this worse than coal burning

tell these people closer to 0% is utter nonsense

Yes it is. We´re talking about emissions, so we´re talking globally. You can´t take a single plant whatever it is, and use it as a reference. If so, I may take a solar or wind farm and say electricity is 100% clean, because it is, right?

It´s the average what counts, and on most countries except third world the percentage of electricity wich produces significant emissions, even if you include wood burning, is a small percentage of the total. It will depend on the country obviously, but we´re talking about maybe 20-50% range

[Tommy Cookers]

....We´re talking about emissions, so we´re talking globally. You can´t take a single plant whatever it is, and use it as a reference. If so, I may take a solar or wind farm and say electricity is 100% clean, because it is, right?
It´s the average what counts, and on most countries except third world the percentage of electricity wich produces significant emissions, even if you include wood burning, is a small percentage of the total. It will depend on the country obviously, but we´re talking about maybe 20-50% range

no wind or solar farm is 100% clean because of the carbon cost of replacing the whole thing every 20 or 30 years
and the carbon cost of the plant that covers the intermittency of the solar or wind farm

any wood-burning beyond the 'low-hanging fruit' level will have a big carbon cost via increased methane emission
most energy crop expansion can't escape this situation (undeveloped land is where the biospheric carbon mostly is)

London etc would have better air quality keeping ICE cars and replacing the 'green' renewable-burners with proper heating