2019 Renault F1 Team

[Phil]

You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.

When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.

As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?

What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.

[PowerandtheGlory]

The issue about budget is a bigger one. Leclerc put the Ferrari on the grid in OZ with a 1:21.4 groesjean was a 1:21.8
So 4 tenths was the difference between haas and fearrari.
If you were Ferrari spending what you do spend and a customer team (which I’m fine with) quali’s 4tenths off. For how much haas spend that is nothing short of spectacular.
You can win without being the highest spenders, but it needs lots of things to line up. Budgets caps are the way to go provided teams enforce these properly unlike what happens in football with names rights etc etc.
I don’t think things will change, but surely spending less on the cars would free up more to spread around other areas of motorsport and bring in new teams.
I like the fact Renault have an amount they are willing to go, and that’s fine.
Trouble is the sport as a whole suffers because of you gave everyone the same budget you would still get some teams better than others. The sport needs to changed so there’s less chance that teams mess - up or develop themselves into a corner. Or maybe the bottom 5 teams get a cash boost from the fiA mid season to help them catch up.
So many ways this could be done.
Sorry off topic a bit..
I’m excited to see if Renault team can really catch up this year as promised.

[Mclarensenna]

You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.

When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.

As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?

What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.

Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.

When Renault decided to join all we heard was Cyril saying that renault is so efficient they can do more with less money, less resources, less people, less less less less. He harped on this from morning to night year after year.
It was obvious this plan was never going to work then or now or ever.
He also harped for years on end how he would close the gap to the leaders on the engine side yet every year got it wrong due to low budget. He always harped how he could do more with less on the engine side.
What happens?
Last year he finally complains and winges especially about Honda resources and budget is too big and he cannot compete with Honda or even mercedes or ferrari. So he admits straight from his mouth that it seems he cannot do more with less and he was wrong all these years and years.

I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

[SmallSoldier]

You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.

When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.

As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?

What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.

Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.

When Renault decided to join all we heard was Cyril saying that renault is so efficient they can do more with less money, less resources, less people, less less less less. He harped on this from morning to night year after year.
It was obvious this plan was never going to work then or now or ever.
He also harped for years on end how he would close the gap to the leaders on the engine side yet every year got it wrong due to low budget. He always harped how he could do more with less on the engine side.
What happens?
Last year he finally complains and winges especially about Honda resources and budget is too big and he cannot compete with Honda or even mercedes or ferrari. So he admits straight from his mouth that it seems he cannot do more with less and he was wrong all these years and years.

I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?

The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.

In addition, you need to realize that Renault is government funded in France, which makes it way harder to just increase their budget.

You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.


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[sn809]

You’re in for a rude awakening if you think Cyril is the guy who decides how large the budget is that they can spend. Even if he was, throwing money isnt always the solution to success. You need the right people too.

When Renault decided to enter, they did so with a plan and a budget that likely was feasible at the time to become competitive across a 5 year period. Then Haas happened and the big players found another way to throw even more resources at a lower cost to extend their lead. At the same time, it has made the midfield way more competitive and as a result, Renault is finding themselves under more pressure, realizing that their plan and level of commitment/investment is barely enough to beat the midfield, the B-teams of Ferrari who are heavily buying parts and likely sharing intel.

As a business entity, they are now realizing that the cost necessary to succeed has increased dramatically and what they originally were willing to invest is no longer enough. At the same time, there are concerns over return of investment: is the sport popular enough to make it worth while with less races being broadcast over free television in their key markets?

What would you do in their shoes? Unfortunately, throwing more money at a solution is not a valid one for most companies. They dont operate with a carte blanche.

Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.



I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?

The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.


You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.


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Red Bull may spend more but "making the numbers work means to spend more but get more back in profit"

ie RB spend more money but also make more money. TR might spend less money but they don't get more back in winnings.

[SmallSoldier]

Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.



I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?

The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.


You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.


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Red Bull may spend more but "making the numbers work means to spend more but get more back in profit"

ie RB spend more money but also make more money. TR might spend less money but they don't get more back in winnings.

Under that assumption, Williams does awesome... Since even though they were last, they didn’t lose money last year.

I would argue how much Red Bull gets back “in profit” (I have not seeing their P&L, so can’t comment on that)... But, an outfit like Red Bull spending the amount of money they are spending is expected to be Winning Championships and that as we all know hasn’t happened in a long time... So, from that stand point (results), RBR isn’t making the numbers work

I need to make a correction to the numbers I posted earlier (and I apologize for that).

Red Bull had a budget in 2018 of 310 million
Renault had a budget in 2018 of 190 million
STR had a budget in 2018 of 150 million

So considering how much they get for Prize Money. The difference between finishing third in the championship and finishing fourth (RBR and Renault positions last year) doesn’t amount to the budget delta between their budget (120 million)... This year’s prize money for each team was 152 million for RBR and 73 million for Renault which... Means that RBR used 120 more million to win 79 more million than Renault... Making Renault “41 million ahead” in terms of Budget used and Prize Money won.

So no, they don’t seem to be making “the numbers work” better than Renault.

We all could argue that RBR creates a lot of exposure for Red Bull (the drink) and that it has an inherent value... But the same could be say about Renault and unluckily none of us can estimate such value with certainty.

You also mentioned STR, so... STR used 150 million to win 52 million... Therefore RBR used 160 more million than STR to create 100 more million in prize money... Doesn’t seem to show that RBR makes the numbers work better than the rest.

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[Peter1919]

You are missing the sponsorship income as a factor. Renault doesn't have many sponsors compared to Red Bull who must be getting good income from Aston Martin and TAG Heur amongst others. They get these sponsors because their team is relatively successful and their brand adds value to others.

[SmallSoldier]

You are missing the sponsorship income as a factor. Renault doesn't have many sponsors compared to Red Bull who must be getting good income from Aston Martin and TAG Heur amongst others. They get these sponsors because their team is relatively successful and their brand adds value to others.

It’s not that I’m missing them, we just don’t have the data to know how much each sponsor pays the team... I would argue that Renault isn’t missing many sponsors if you take a look at the list of current sponsors for them.



Now, I don’t know if their sponsors pay more, less or as much as Red Bull sponsors. Would be interesting to find such figures... But still I fail to understand how we can say that RBR uses their money better than Renault... I could see an argument saying that Haas or Force India (RP) uses theirs better based on their track performance versus their budget, but not Red Bull


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[Peter1919]

Infiniti is the luxury car arm of Nissan and Nissan's major shareholder is Renault, RCI Bank is also owned by Renault so basically two of Renault's main sponsors are really money from the same overall pot as money from Renault Group.

[SmallSoldier]

Infiniti is the luxury car arm of Nissan and Nissan's major shareholder is Renault, RCI Bank is also owned by Renault so basically two of Renault's main sponsors are really money from the same overall pot as money from Renault Group.

You are right... My point is that I don’t how much the rest and how much Red Bull’s sponsors pay... I guess that Red Bull’s may pay more than Renault’s... Is it enough to cover the difference? At the end does it really show who is using better their funds?

I believe the argument is that RBH is aiming for Championships and they aren’t achieving that... I just find interesting that we will loosely say that one is using their funds better based on their finishing positions in the Championship when one clearly spends more than the other one


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[Mclarensenna]

Cyril is the guy in charge of the F1 division. He's job is to make the numbers work. Christian Horner ends up making Redbull cost less than Torro rosso most years. He is not in charge of the money Mateshetiz invests but he is in charge of making the numbers work so Mateshitz opens his chequebook when the numbers stack up. And boy do they stack up. Hence why Mateshitz keeps investing and getting massive returns. That is what a good manager does.
Toto Wolf took the mercedes budget from below Mclaren redbull and ferrari to the biggest budget on the grid.
He convinced mercedes to do it and he made the numbers work and stack up. And in 2014 Mercedes admitted they got 2 billion in free advertising from winning. Toto made the numbers stack up. And Mercedes board then agrees and approves the funds.
That is the job of a good F1 manager and it has been proven time and time again.



I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

Red Bull spends less than Toro Rosso? In which Universe?

The reality is that Renault is spending 200 million, which is half of the 400 million that Red Bull spends and 1/3 of the 600 million that Mercedes and Ferrari spend.


You just can’t make the “numbers” work... I don’t even know why you mean by that... And Mercedes spends 10 more million than Ferrari, so they are both in the same level playing field, but way ahead than everyone else.


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Red Bull may spend more but "making the numbers work means to spend more but get more back in profit"

ie RB spend more money but also make more money. TR might spend less money but they don't get more back in winnings.

Small soldier You posted so many different replies each 1 completely wrong misquoting everything i said and taking everything out of context. You also made up so many quotes and figures also completely wrong.
There are figures all over the internet over the years.
When i said top managers make numbers work, its at the end of the day overall at the end of the year.
Return on total investment for the company!
How difficult is it for you to grasp this simple concept?

You keep forgetting to add in advertising. That is 1 of the main reasons F1 teams join.
How can you not know this?
Mercedes said they got 2 billion inadvertising for their cars in 2014 alone.
So yes that is how you make the numbers work.
And how the F1 program costs Mercedes not just $1
Not just zero
But they make 100s of million in profits from the f1 programme
Let me repeat
Mercedes makes a massive PROFIT and it costs them ZERO

Redbull sells billions of dollars in drinks each year over and above from F1 advertising revenue much more and a much better return than torro rosso has over the last decade. let me repeat $ ADVERTISING $ their brand.
In this case drinks, previous case mercedes cars.
That is also how Christian horner makes the numbers work for Mateshitz better than Torro Rosso does, AT THE END OF THE DAY!

So stop misqouting me over and over again.
Also redbull sponsors pay way more than renaults do hence why more revenue yet all you did was count total sponsors.
The most valuable spot on a F1 car now is the massive rear wing which is worth up to 50 million.

Ferrari sold this space, Mercedes sold this space to Petronas.

Redbull sold it to Aston martin and even signed a special deal to sell valkyries worth a total of over half a billion in sales. so more profit for redbull so they can spend on the F1 car.

Renault on the other hand still has not sold the rear wing valuable space.
Mercedes sold this spot to petronas from 2010 if i recall
Renault it is their 4th year and still have not sold it. Cyirl is useless and cannot make the numbers work and has not so far.

Toto and Horner are an example of how top managers make the numbers work in F1.

[Mclarensenna]

Here is an article i found about F1 team budgets. Not sure how accurate it is but lets break it down
https://www.racefans.net/2018/12/26/the ... -part-two/

Renault only collects $40 million in sponsorship. The rear wing is 1 of the most valuable spots yet no outside sponsor unlike Ferrari, Redbull and Mercedes who have aston martin, petronas etc are on the rear wing of the renault.

Sponsorship money of top teams

Ferrari $160 Million
Mercedes $150 million
Redbull $100 Million
Renault $40 Million <---- Disaster

if i remember correctly in 2009 Ross Brawn got Petronas to pay $40 million USD to sponsor mercedes and be on the rear wing. And that is from 1 sponsor alone so imagine all the rest.
Yet Renault in 2019 has TOTAL sponsors of only 40 million. Cyril is a complete failure it seems. Ross Brawn is an example of a top manager with the way he set up Mercedes for success with then Toto following on his business model reaping the fruits year after year.

How much Top teams contribute to fund their F1 programmes
Renault $90 Million
Mercedes $80 Million
Redbull $65 Million
Ferrari $0

Mercedes in 2014 stated they got 2 billion in free advertising, Redbull supposedly gets billions of free drink advertising as well its been stated over the years
so F1 can be actually very worthwhile and does not cost the teams much if any at all if you have a good programme, good plan and a good manager running the programme.
Cyrl so far has not shown to be a good manager at all.

[Phil]

I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

My issue with your posts are that you are stuck in this assumption that Cyril is doing everything wrong and that if you swap him out for a different face but keep everything else the same, that the outcome would be very different. All you are basing everything off, are some public statements that you don't agree with it and comparing them with different teams with very different resources, budgets and outlooks. That simply doesn't work.

Perhaps you should get over your dislike for Cyril and as a kind of mental experiment, picture yourself in his shoes with the same budget constraints, the same (limited) resources and ask yourself which problems are real, which complaints have merit and what it effectively takes to compete with the might of both Ferrari & Mercedes. And while you're at it, same applies to McLaren too, as they're effectively in exactly the same position.

And lastly; what you define as "public whinging" is applying [political] pressure to the sport. It's part of the game and everyone does it. It happened when Ferrari got Mercedes fancy suspensions banned, when Mercedes and other teams questioned the legality of how Ferrari were using their battery, when other teams questioned both Mercedes and Ferrari about additives in the oil. Heck, one of the biggest political influences of the sport in the last decade was when Mercedes (among others) was pressuring F1 into using these new V6 turbos. Everyone does it, because F1 is a business.

[Mclarensenna]

I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

My issue with your posts are that you are stuck in this assumption that Cyril is doing everything wrong and that if you swap him out for a different face but keep everything else the same, that the outcome would be very different. All you are basing everything off, are some public statements that you don't agree with it and comparing them with different teams with very different resources, budgets and outlooks. That simply doesn't work.

Perhaps you should get over your dislike for Cyril and as a kind of mental experiment, picture yourself in his shoes with the same budget constraints, the same (limited) resources and ask yourself which problems are real, which complaints have merit and what it effectively takes to compete with the might of both Ferrari & Mercedes. And while you're at it, same applies to McLaren too, as they're effectively in exactly the same position.

And lastly; what you define as "public whinging" is applying [political] pressure to the sport. It's part of the game and everyone does it. It happened when Ferrari got Mercedes fancy suspensions banned, when Mercedes and other teams questioned the legality of how Ferrari were using their battery, when other teams questioned both Mercedes and Ferrari about additives in the oil. Heck, one of the biggest political influences of the sport in the last decade was when Mercedes (among others) was pressuring F1 into using these new V6 turbos. Everyone does it, because F1 is a business.

I never said i dislike Cyril personally. I said he is doing a terrible job and not fit for this role at all and should be replaced and gave my reasoning. There is a difference. I like my brother but he would be an even worse F1 manager than Cyril. Saying that does not mean i like my brother any less than Cyril or anybody. Some people make good f1 managers some do not. That's life. Lets see if Bahrain the Renault is any better as in Australia it was 2 seconds off pole and nowhere near the top teams.

[Ground Effect]

I could go on and on but a good manager Cyril is not.

My issue with your posts are that you are stuck in this assumption that Cyril is doing everything wrong and that if you swap him out for a different face but keep everything else the same, that the outcome would be very different. All you are basing everything off, are some public statements that you don't agree with it and comparing them with different teams with very different resources, budgets and outlooks. That simply doesn't work.

Perhaps you should get over your dislike for Cyril and as a kind of mental experiment, picture yourself in his shoes with the same budget constraints, the same (limited) resources and ask yourself which problems are real, which complaints have merit and what it effectively takes to compete with the might of both Ferrari & Mercedes. And while you're at it, same applies to McLaren too, as they're effectively in exactly the same position.

And lastly; what you define as "public whinging" is applying [political] pressure to the sport. It's part of the game and everyone does it. It happened when Ferrari got Mercedes fancy suspensions banned, when Mercedes and other teams questioned the legality of how Ferrari were using their battery, when other teams questioned both Mercedes and Ferrari about additives in the oil. Heck, one of the biggest political influences of the sport in the last decade was when Mercedes (among others) was pressuring F1 into using these new V6 turbos. Everyone does it, because F1 is a business.

I never said i dislike Cyril personally. I said he is doing a terrible job and not fit for this role at all and should be replaced and gave my reasoning. There is a difference. I like my brother but he would be an even worse F1 manager than Cyril. Saying that does not mean i like my brother any less than Cyril or anybody. Some people make good f1 managers some do not. That's life. Lets see if Bahrain the Renault is any better as in Australia it was 2 seconds off pole and nowhere near the top teams.

It's impossible for you to determine if he's doing a terrible job or not, because you don't know the targets he's been given by his bosses. If Renault want to spend x amount, that is what they will spend. It has nothing to do with Cyril.