2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

[mzso]

IMHO it's not about who is right or wrong. It's about who is intelligent enough to know when they are putting themselves at risk of a collision. He was fully passed and any driver with half a braincell would have seen what was about to unfold. Even better; if roles had been reversed, you can bet Max would have aggressively closed the door just as Sainz did. Max however refused to give up, braked later and risked being hit. Therefore I conclude he was lucky to escape with zero damage.

This reeks of bias and is totally baseless. He clearly stated what he thought that Sainz didn't see him. Which is likely true. He wasn't even looking, the way it seems.
And no he shouldn't have expected a collision. Because most drivers pay attention to where they are going and not just assume.
You'd loose that bet, because despite Verstappen's many collisions, none was like this.

[Phil]

That's just not true. He's not an oracle, to know when the other driver will do something extremely dumb.

He doesnt need to be. I presume he has eyes and therefore saw the approaching right-hander with the bright glowing papaya-orange car fully ahead of him to his left. It really doesnt take a genius to foresee that that bright orange car is going to turn into that corner and that if he, on a much shallower line, will have to brake accordingly to not risk a potential race compromising collision.

There are plenty of drivers up and down the grid who have excellent spacial awareness and are extremely skilled in race craft and over many seasons have avoided collisions like these.

Verstappen isnt one of them. To be fair; Sainz probably isnt either (The verdict is still out IMO).

On the other extreme, you have drivers like Alonso who have raced around the midfield and rarely had any at all and managed to gauge perfectly when to fight and when not to.

[NathanOlder]

This has nothing to do with brazil. There it was stupid to even challenge Ocon. And they share the blame IMO.

So Verstappen turns in to Ocon, just like Sainz did to Max. Although Ocon was always alongside Max in Brazil. Max was only alongside at the last second. Amd you say Brazil was "share the blame" while Bahrain was all on Sainz.

And you accuse others of wreaking of biased opinions

[Wynters]

IMHO it's not about who is right or wrong. It's about who is intelligent enough to know when they are putting themselves at risk of a collision. He was fully passed and any driver with half a braincell would have seen what was about to unfold. Even better; if roles had been reversed, you can bet Max would have aggressively closed the door just as Sainz did. Max however refused to give up, braked later and risked being hit. Therefore I conclude he was lucky to escape with zero damage.

This reeks of bias and is totally baseless. He clearly stated what he thought that Sainz didn't see him. Which is likely true. He wasn't even looking, the way it seems.

Why do you claim that he wasn't even looking? What evidence do you have?

“He tried to go around the outside and brake late,” said Verstappen, “and then I guess he didn’t see me anymore on the side because with these cars you are just blinded what’s happening next to you".

And no he shouldn't have expected a collision. Because most drivers pay attention to where they are going and not just assume.

If you dive up the inside from a position where you aren't even 1% alongside when the braking zone starts, you are taking a chance and it is you who are initiating the risk of contact. As Phil correctly pointed out, it was a stupid risk for Verstappen to take. He risked a huge haul of points just so he didn't spend a lap or two (at most) behind a much slower car. That sort of thinking gets you a race win (see Pastor Maldonado) but it doesn't win you a title race.

I don't know whether you believe Hamilton is a good driver or not but, as the most successful driver of his era, there are some aspects of his driving that are certainly worth considering. In particular, since the start of the 2013 season (when Mercedes developed their first competitive car) he has DNFed in 7 races out of 121. Verstappen DNFed in 7 races in 2017 alone, another 4 last season and has already risked another one this season.

[hollus]

Gentlemen, this is turning ugly. Attacks on the poster instead of on the post might end up with a locked thread.
It is OK to agree to disagree, no one ever convinced everybody else in the internet.

[joshuagore]

That's just not true. He's not an oracle, to know when the other driver will do something extremely dumb.

He doesnt need to be. I presume he has eyes and therefore saw the approaching right-hander with the bright glowing papaya-orange car fully ahead of him to his left. It really doesnt take a genius to foresee that that bright orange car is going to turn into that corner and that if he, on a much shallower line, will have to brake accordingly to not risk a potential race compromising collision.

There are plenty of drivers up and down the grid who have excellent spacial awareness and are extremely skilled in race craft and over many seasons have avoided collisions like these.

Verstappen isnt one of them. To be fair; Sainz probably isnt either (The verdict is still out IMO).

On the other extreme, you have drivers like Alonso who have raced around the midfield and rarely had any at all and managed to gauge perfectly when to fight and when not to.

I think people are arguing with you only because in this case he didn't take himself out... You are basically saying 'the best' might have seen that real risk and made a different choice.... 'the best' don't have to rely on such luck. I would gather others are just attributing the fact that this didn't take him out not to luck but to some otherworldly skill he has of being the basher but not the dnf'r... We would all be so lucky to see him in a mercedes, and really know which is which.

[Schuttelberg]

That's just not true. He's not an oracle, to know when the other driver will do something extremely dumb.

He doesnt need to be. I presume he has eyes and therefore saw the approaching right-hander with the bright glowing papaya-orange car fully ahead of him to his left. It really doesnt take a genius to foresee that that bright orange car is going to turn into that corner and that if he, on a much shallower line, will have to brake accordingly to not risk a potential race compromising collision.

There are plenty of drivers up and down the grid who have excellent spacial awareness and are extremely skilled in race craft and over many seasons have avoided collisions like these.

Verstappen isnt one of them. To be fair; Sainz probably isnt either (The verdict is still out IMO).

On the other extreme, you have drivers like Alonso who have raced around the midfield and rarely had any at all and managed to gauge perfectly when to fight and when not to.

I think people are arguing with you only because in this case he didn't take himself out... You are basically saying 'the best' might have seen that real risk and made a different choice.... 'the best' don't have to rely on such luck. I would gather others are just attributing the fact that this didn't take him out not to luck but to some otherworldly skill he has of being the basher but not the dnf'r... We would all be so lucky to see him in a mercedes, and really know which is which.

I think you can count me as a 'biggish' Max Verstappen fan and I am completely indifferent about Sainz though I rate him.

I am going to keep Alonso out of this discussion because he was simply out of the fight the last 4-5 years and focus on the 3 protagonists we have at the moment.

I am in complete agreement with Phil about risk vs reward. Lewis has hit a sweet spot with his skill and experience whereby he is aggressive and yet smart when he needs to be. I think his encounters with Massa and one with Maldonando in 2012 made him learn a lot. I see that he tends to leave racing room against guys like Vettel who he knows won't yield but respect the limits. Against Max he tends to yield when it's unnecessary because he knows he will lose a lot more than Max and that Max doesn't care. At the same time, he absolutely bullied the living daylights out of Rosberg because he knew he will yield. I think this wisdom of choosing his battles is what Seb and Max lack. Hell, they've mostly been at each other the last 3 years.

With 100% perfection, Seb definitely would have taken the title battle deeper last year and Max would almost certainly have finished runner up without his shocking first third of the season.

Seb has lost 8 points already this year, Max is fortunate to have lost none yet.

[mzso]

He doesnt need to be. I presume he has eyes and therefore saw the approaching right-hander with the bright glowing papaya-orange car fully ahead of him to his left. It really doesnt take a genius to foresee that that bright orange car is going to turn into that corner and that if he, on a much shallower line, will have to brake accordingly to not risk a potential race compromising collision.

You're pulling nonse out of the air again. You know most drivers expect the other to be reasonable and leave enough room.

The way Hamilton did it, which Palmer pointed out.

Verstappen isnt one of them. To be fair; Sainz probably isnt either (The verdict is still out IMO).

On the other extreme, you have drivers like Alonso who have raced around the midfield and rarely had any at all and managed to gauge perfectly when to fight and when not to.

Since Verstappen had nothing more to avoid. Your memory seems selective s well because Alonso collided a lot last year and complained about it a lot as well. You can't compensate for other people's mistakes.

[mzso]

And you accuse others of wreaking of biased opinions

Indeed, because you again show bias, by making invalid comparisons.

So Verstappen turns in to Ocon, just like Sainz did to Max. Although Ocon was always alongside Max in Brazil. Max was only alongside at the last second. Amd you say Brazil was "share the blame" while Bahrain was all on Sainz.

Entirely different. At the moment of contact he was nowhere near fully beside him. And it was a much faster turn. And he was lapped besides. Jumping in there so aggressively without having the position was just as unreasonable as Verstappen taking up the fight.

[mzso]

“He tried to go around the outside and brake late,” said Verstappen, “and then I guess hedidn’t see me anymore on the side because with these cars you are just blinded what’s happening next to you".

Well, he was in his view near the contact, but since I guess he didn't expect him there he didn't react, or chose not to.
(And I expect someone with F1 level reflexes to be able to.)
Also, obivously he could have followed him in the mirror and would have seen when Verstappen going in the inside before disappearing. But I guess he just assumed the job was done when it wasn't.

If you dive up the inside from a position where you aren't even 1% alongside when the braking zone starts, you are taking a chance and it is you who are initiating the risk of contact.
As Phil correctly pointed out.

Utter rubbish. Most successful overtakes in a turn happen like this...
And Phild didn't point out anything correctly.

I would gather others are just attributing the fact that this didn't take him out not to luck but to some otherworldly skill he has of being the basher but not the dnf'r...

It was Sains doing the taking out. The question was who does he take out.

I think this wisdom of choosing his battles is what Seb and Max lack. Hell, they've mostly been at each other the last 3 years.

I mostly agree, but I think Vettel was more glitching moves rather than picking them wrong in the past year.
Also in this race it wasn't a factor for Verstappen. Unlike China, Australia last year, the Räikkönen collision, etc.

[mzso]

Gentlemen, this is turning ugly. Attacks on the poster instead of on the post might end up with a locked thread.
It is OK to agree to disagree, no one ever convinced everybody else in the internet.

Yeah. Though it would be nice if people spouting squarely unreasonable stuff could be convinced.

For what its worth the thread can be locked IMO, it's getting repetitive.

[NathanOlder]

Yeah, repetitive in that you seem to be arguing with everyone. Normally thats a sign that you got something wrong. It happens to everyone at times so its nothing to worry about.

What is unreasonable is that you have 0 blame on Max for the Bahrain incident.

[Andres125sx]

There´s some video wich shows Verstappen-Sainz incident? I find it suspicious that they didn´t show any replay... despite under investigation...

The conspiracy theorist in me is saying that´s the proof it was Max fault, but since he´s the protege of both RBR and FIA they didn´t show it

Yes there is, and you should watch them before making atrocious comments. Check out links, but there's also the basic top onboards video. Sainz plain dumbly drove into Verstappen, who even tried to use too much kerbs to avoid him.

Poor Verstappen...

I´ve been watching some replays, those wich should have been broadcasted on live tv but for some reason they didn´t , and agree it was a racing incident. Carlos should have left some space, specially with Max. But also I think Max was dive bombing, at least after noticing the line the car in front was taking. There´s no way Max could take that line, if not using Carlos car as an extra braking device.

But both are minor mistakes wich are even debatable, so racing incident is ok I think

[Andres125sx]

Views from both onboard cameras here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18OE3O_t7mM

Looks fairly simple - Carloz turned in expecting Max not to be there because he thought he was far enough ahead but Max was fully alongside and they touched. Max was alongside because he could brake later being the slower car

Thanks for the video

As I´ve just posted, watching the car in front line I think Max was too long, but I think it was a racing incident as agree Carlos should have left some more space too

You're no fan of Carlos but think there's a conspiracy against him / for Max. So you dislike Max even more than Carlos? Ok, that's cool too.

Not really. What I dislike is when some driver get preferential treatment, and I think we all have seen that several times in the short F1 career of the dutch, both from FIA and RBR, that´s the reason I was suspcicious.

The reality is that there are few conspiracies in F1.

Sorry but...

F1 manage tons of money, do I need to continue my argument?

[sAx]

I find Hamilton's recient quote about Honda being within 10bhp of Mercedes amusing
I can understand saying within 10 or 20 kph.....But really, with all the attention to detail required in the cockpit during the race, the thought of "Hey, Honda"s like 10 bhp down on us"
C' mon Hamy...Just drive and win!!!

It might be more than what he perceives, because RB admittedly is low-drag oriented. Which they say is now a hindrance.

...more like what his Engineers have told him.