2019 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 23-26

[zibby43]

What explains their big advantage over Ferrari in the slow corners in the last 4 races of 2018 when they didn't run the rims - 2nd sector in Interlagos, and 3rd sector in COTA, Mexico City and Yas Marina? The wheel rim was there for tyre management in the race and has very little effect on single lap speed.

Please substantiate you claim for their "massive advantage" in Mexico, COTA and yas marina

Abu Dhabi 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 37.263, Hamilton 37.356, Bottas 37.440, Verstappen 37.634, Vettel 37.858, Raikkonen 37.862
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-20

Interlagos 2nd sectors: Hamilton 34.122, Verstappen 34.228, Ricciardo 34.232, Bottas 34.241, Vettel 34.287, Raikkonen 34.290
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-18

Mexico City 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 19.275, Verstappen 19.315, Hamilton 19.341, Bottas 19.520, Vettel 19.527, Raikkonen 19.692
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-17

COTA 3rd sectors: Hamilton 30.663, Ricciardo 30.797, Raikkonen 30.827, Bottas 30.843, Vettel 30.856, Verstappen had PU penalties
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-22

Mercedes were consistently faster than Ferrari in the slow corners without the supposed "magic" rims.

Just as a clarification, they did run the "ribbed" rims in all of those races.

For some races, including COTA and Mexico, Mercedes voluntarily chose to not run the "holes," which were also a critical component of the rim design.

Spa was the first step - the introduction of the ribbed rims. And from Singapore the team raced the version of the wheels with ribbing and a series of holes in the wheel - that worked in conjunction with new wheel hubs to improve its rear-tyre temperature management.

Ferrari protested the holes, and Mercedes did not run the wheels with the holes open until Abu Dhabi.

In sum, they've always used these new rear wheels since their introduction:



But for some races in '18, while they were trying to lock up both championships without any unnecessary grief from Ferrari, they closed these holes:

[erudite450]

Please substantiate you claim for their "massive advantage" in Mexico, COTA and yas marina

Abu Dhabi 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 37.263, Hamilton 37.356, Bottas 37.440, Verstappen 37.634, Vettel 37.858, Raikkonen 37.862
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-20

Interlagos 2nd sectors: Hamilton 34.122, Verstappen 34.228, Ricciardo 34.232, Bottas 34.241, Vettel 34.287, Raikkonen 34.290
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-18

Mexico City 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 19.275, Verstappen 19.315, Hamilton 19.341, Bottas 19.520, Vettel 19.527, Raikkonen 19.692
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-17

COTA 3rd sectors: Hamilton 30.663, Ricciardo 30.797, Raikkonen 30.827, Bottas 30.843, Vettel 30.856, Verstappen had PU penalties
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-22

Mercedes were consistently faster than Ferrari in the slow corners without the supposed "magic" rims.

Just as a clarification, they did run the "ribbed" rims in all of those races.

For some races, including COTA and Mexico, Mercedes voluntarily chose to not run the "holes," which were also a critical component of the rim design.

Spa was the first step - the introduction of the ribbed rims. And from Singapore the team raced the version of the wheels with ribbing and a series of holes in the wheel - that worked in conjunction with new wheel hubs to improve its rear-tyre temperature management.

Ferrari protested the holes, and Mercedes did not run the wheels with the holes open until Abu Dhabi.

In sum, they've always used these new rear wheels since their introduction:

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tyre-1.jpg

But for some races in '18, while they were trying to lock up both championships without any unnecessary grief from Ferrari, they closed these holes:

https://cdn-9.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... side-1.jpg

So you think that their low-speed downforce is due to ribbed rims?

[Sierra117]

Abu Dhabi 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 37.263, Hamilton 37.356, Bottas 37.440, Verstappen 37.634, Vettel 37.858, Raikkonen 37.862
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-20

Interlagos 2nd sectors: Hamilton 34.122, Verstappen 34.228, Ricciardo 34.232, Bottas 34.241, Vettel 34.287, Raikkonen 34.290
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-18

Mexico City 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 19.275, Verstappen 19.315, Hamilton 19.341, Bottas 19.520, Vettel 19.527, Raikkonen 19.692
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-17

COTA 3rd sectors: Hamilton 30.663, Ricciardo 30.797, Raikkonen 30.827, Bottas 30.843, Vettel 30.856, Verstappen had PU penalties
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-22

Mercedes were consistently faster than Ferrari in the slow corners without the supposed "magic" rims.

Just as a clarification, they did run the "ribbed" rims in all of those races.

For some races, including COTA and Mexico, Mercedes voluntarily chose to not run the "holes," which were also a critical component of the rim design.

Spa was the first step - the introduction of the ribbed rims. And from Singapore the team raced the version of the wheels with ribbing and a series of holes in the wheel - that worked in conjunction with new wheel hubs to improve its rear-tyre temperature management.

Ferrari protested the holes, and Mercedes did not run the wheels with the holes open until Abu Dhabi.

In sum, they've always used these new rear wheels since their introduction:

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tyre-1.jpg

But for some races in '18, while they were trying to lock up both championships without any unnecessary grief from Ferrari, they closed these holes:

https://cdn-9.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... side-1.jpg

So you think that their low-speed downforce is due to ribbed rims?

The ribbed rims are one of the reasons we know, and it seems to be one of the most important, but now they have suspension stuff on the new car, improvements over last year, which we obviously don't know the full details of (at least I don't) so there may be something there, but overall the rims have helped a lot.

One can clearly see prior to the rims, the car would be sliding around from the rear end and guess what happens when your tyres overheat and you arrive at a slow corner? Wheelspin, no grip and all that lovely stuff. Just keep tyre temps in check is enough to boost your performance in low speed corners, don't even have to get to suspension if you can get it through a rim redesign.

[erudite450]

Just as a clarification, they did run the "ribbed" rims in all of those races.

For some races, including COTA and Mexico, Mercedes voluntarily chose to not run the "holes," which were also a critical component of the rim design.

Spa was the first step - the introduction of the ribbed rims. And from Singapore the team raced the version of the wheels with ribbing and a series of holes in the wheel - that worked in conjunction with new wheel hubs to improve its rear-tyre temperature management.

Ferrari protested the holes, and Mercedes did not run the wheels with the holes open until Abu Dhabi.

In sum, they've always used these new rear wheels since their introduction:

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tyre-1.jpg

But for some races in '18, while they were trying to lock up both championships without any unnecessary grief from Ferrari, they closed these holes:

https://cdn-9.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... side-1.jpg

So you think that their low-speed downforce is due to ribbed rims?

The ribbed rims are one of the reasons we know, and it seems to be one of the most important, but now they have suspension stuff on the new car, improvements over last year, which we obviously don't know the full details of (at least I don't) so there may be something there, but overall the rims have helped a lot.

One can clearly see prior to the rims, the car would be sliding around from the rear end and guess what happens when your tyres overheat and you arrive at a slow corner? Wheelspin, no grip and all that lovely stuff. Just keep tyre temps in check is enough to boost your performance in low speed corners, don't even have to get to suspension if you can get it through a rim redesign.

Well then, let's agree to disagree.

[Sierra117]

Wow.

[Zynerji]

Custom tyre changes helped most IMHO.

[zibby43]

Abu Dhabi 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 37.263, Hamilton 37.356, Bottas 37.440, Verstappen 37.634, Vettel 37.858, Raikkonen 37.862
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-20

Interlagos 2nd sectors: Hamilton 34.122, Verstappen 34.228, Ricciardo 34.232, Bottas 34.241, Vettel 34.287, Raikkonen 34.290
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-18

Mexico City 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 19.275, Verstappen 19.315, Hamilton 19.341, Bottas 19.520, Vettel 19.527, Raikkonen 19.692
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-17

COTA 3rd sectors: Hamilton 30.663, Ricciardo 30.797, Raikkonen 30.827, Bottas 30.843, Vettel 30.856, Verstappen had PU penalties
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-22

Mercedes were consistently faster than Ferrari in the slow corners without the supposed "magic" rims.

Just as a clarification, they did run the "ribbed" rims in all of those races.

For some races, including COTA and Mexico, Mercedes voluntarily chose to not run the "holes," which were also a critical component of the rim design.

Spa was the first step - the introduction of the ribbed rims. And from Singapore the team raced the version of the wheels with ribbing and a series of holes in the wheel - that worked in conjunction with new wheel hubs to improve its rear-tyre temperature management.

Ferrari protested the holes, and Mercedes did not run the wheels with the holes open until Abu Dhabi.

In sum, they've always used these new rear wheels since their introduction:

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tyre-1.jpg

But for some races in '18, while they were trying to lock up both championships without any unnecessary grief from Ferrari, they closed these holes:

https://cdn-9.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... side-1.jpg

So you think that their low-speed downforce is due to ribbed rims?

That's not what I was saying, at all. I was adding some nuance to the discussion, as you incorrectly stated that they ran races without the ribbed wheels. They raced with the wheel's holes filled in, as picture in the diagram(s) above.

There are multiple important design elements going on with those wheels, in addition to ribs and the holes (which were closed up for a few races to guard against a protest). Mercedes also developed special brake drums to better manage tire temperatures in conjunction with the wheels.

That said, I do think Merc's innovations in this area played a significant part in aiding in low-speed mechanical grip due to better thermal management of the rear tires.

[erikejw]

The ribbed rim are only in the rear, so that's not what s giving them a good front end.

The ribbed rim gave them good rear end without overheating their tyres, and hence improving their traction in slow speed corners in 2018.... they already had good front end on par with Ferrari and redbull in 2018, but their problem was overheating rear tyres by the end of the lap (2018 Monaco gp Lewis almost same level with Riccardo until s2 and losing all the time in s3)

This year with the ribbed rim and the new front suspension they are unstoppable in slow speed... Bottas quote from preseason test also confirms this

No, the most important solution to Mercedes problems was solved by Pirelli according to a Merc engineer(from AMUS)

"A Mercedes engineer admits:" The new tires have solved our biggest problem without us having to do much for it. "

[Zynerji]

The ribbed rim are only in the rear, so that's not what s giving them a good front end.

The ribbed rim gave them good rear end without overheating their tyres, and hence improving their traction in slow speed corners in 2018.... they already had good front end on par with Ferrari and redbull in 2018, but their problem was overheating rear tyres by the end of the lap (2018 Monaco gp Lewis almost same level with Riccardo until s2 and losing all the time in s3)

This year with the ribbed rim and the new front suspension they are unstoppable in slow speed... Bottas quote from preseason test also confirms this

No, the most important solution to Mercedes problems was solved by Pirelli according to a Merc engineer(from AMUS)

"A Mercedes engineer admits:" The new tires have solved our biggest problem without us having to do much for it. "

Bingo.

And this change also ruined others' solutions in the process.

[siskue2005]

The ribbed rim are only in the rear, so that's not what s giving them a good front end.

The ribbed rim gave them good rear end without overheating their tyres, and hence improving their traction in slow speed corners in 2018.... they already had good front end on par with Ferrari and redbull in 2018, but their problem was overheating rear tyres by the end of the lap (2018 Monaco gp Lewis almost same level with Riccardo until s2 and losing all the time in s3)

This year with the ribbed rim and the new front suspension they are unstoppable in slow speed... Bottas quote from preseason test also confirms this

No, the most important solution to Mercedes problems was solved by Pirelli according to a Merc engineer(from AMUS)

"A Mercedes engineer admits:" The new tires have solved our biggest problem without us having to do much for it. "

Are you talking about 2018 or 2019?

[siskue2005]

What explains their big advantage over Ferrari in the slow corners in the last 4 races of 2018 when they didn't run the rims - 2nd sector in Interlagos, and 3rd sector in COTA, Mexico City and Yas Marina? The wheel rim was there for tyre management in the race and has very little effect on single lap speed.

Please substantiate you claim for their "massive advantage" in Mexico, COTA and yas marina

Abu Dhabi 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 37.263, Hamilton 37.356, Bottas 37.440, Verstappen 37.634, Vettel 37.858, Raikkonen 37.862
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-20

Interlagos 2nd sectors: Hamilton 34.122, Verstappen 34.228, Ricciardo 34.232, Bottas 34.241, Vettel 34.287, Raikkonen 34.290
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-18

Mexico City 3rd sectors: Ricciardo 19.275, Verstappen 19.315, Hamilton 19.341, Bottas 19.520, Vettel 19.527, Raikkonen 19.692
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-17

COTA 3rd sectors: Hamilton 30.663, Ricciardo 30.797, Raikkonen 30.827, Bottas 30.843, Vettel 30.856, Verstappen had PU penalties
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ication-22

Mercedes were consistently faster than Ferrari in the slow corners without the supposed "magic" rims.

How do you know that other teams were not underperforming ? And why was Lewis so slow in Mexico? Arguably the most twisty circuit in the 4 tracks you mentioned!

And Brazil only has like 1 or 2 slow corners, rest of the circuit is medium to high speed corners...

And in yas marina Lewis was slower than the redbull in slower section

So the only circuit where Lewis was faster is slow section was COTA by a massive 0.1 sec ....... so your argument for Mercedes was ALWAYS faster in slower section is based on that 0.1 sec in COTA? wow

[Just_a_fan]

He was comparing Mercedes and Ferrari, not Mercedes and RedBull.

[wickedz50]

Out of curiosity can a team opt out of any race weekend ? will they lose out of FIA money or they can get banned?

[AnthonyG]

Out of curiosity can a team opt out of any race weekend ? will they lose out of FIA money or they can get banned?

They have an obligation to start every race, but can be excused by FOM. I remember a case a few years ago where Marussia (?) missed the season start.

[Sierra117]

YIKES, Vettel in the barriers.