Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

[djones]

Wow, I'm impressed that he did almost an entire race with that.

He didn't, he came in the lap after and swapped to hards.

[zibby43]

Tech Tuesday (addresses Merc's front suspension):

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 3ZraL.html

"The latest front suspension geometries cleverly oblige the car’s nose to dive relative to the suspension when a lot of steering lock is used. This induces not only a weight distribution change towards the front that helps the tyre build up load more quickly, but also induces more ground effect from the front wing and nose underside."

• "As you can see from the video at the top of the page, the more steering lock is applied, the angle of the suspension arm relative to the rest of the suspension changes, effectively levering the front of the car down."
  
  "It is believed that Ferrari introduced the feature last year, quickly followed by Red Bull. Mercedes incorporated it into the design of this year’s W10 and it’s now being used by most of the other teams too."
  
  "It’s particularly ingenious in that it allows a solution to low-speed understeer without compromising rear stability in high-speed corners."

Mercedes setup:



Ferrari setup:

[DiogoBrand]

Wow, I'm impressed that he did almost an entire race with that.

He didn't, he came in the lap after and swapped to hards.

Oh right, I didn't remember that.

[henry]

Tech Tuesday (addresses Merc's front suspension):

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 3ZraL.html

"The latest front suspension geometries cleverly oblige the car’s nose to dive relative to the suspension when a lot of steering lock is used. This induces not only a weight distribution change towards the front that helps the tyre build up load more quickly, but also induces more ground effect from the front wing and nose underside."

• "As you can see from the video at the top of the page, the more steering lock is applied, the angle of the suspension arm relative to the rest of the suspension changes, effectively levering the front of the car down."
  
  "It is believed that Ferrari introduced the feature last year, quickly followed by Red Bull. Mercedes incorporated it into the design of this year’s W10 and it’s now being used by most of the other teams too."
  
  "It’s particularly ingenious in that it allows a solution to low-speed understeer without compromising rear stability in high-speed corners."

I can’t see how this makes a weight distribution change.

I would think there are some transient forces with energy supplied by the power steering mechanism and the change in height of the COG but this is not weight change. The weight distribution can only be moved by moving the COG.

I believe the reason this is important is that a weight distribution change would apply through the corner but the transient forces only happen at turn in.

[SiLo]

Tech Tuesday (addresses Merc's front suspension):

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 3ZraL.html

"The latest front suspension geometries cleverly oblige the car’s nose to dive relative to the suspension when a lot of steering lock is used. This induces not only a weight distribution change towards the front that helps the tyre build up load more quickly, but also induces more ground effect from the front wing and nose underside."

• "As you can see from the video at the top of the page, the more steering lock is applied, the angle of the suspension arm relative to the rest of the suspension changes, effectively levering the front of the car down."
  
  "It is believed that Ferrari introduced the feature last year, quickly followed by Red Bull. Mercedes incorporated it into the design of this year’s W10 and it’s now being used by most of the other teams too."
  
  "It’s particularly ingenious in that it allows a solution to low-speed understeer without compromising rear stability in high-speed corners."

I can’t see how this makes a weight distribution change.

I would think there are some transient forces with energy supplied by the power steering mechanism and the change in height of the COG but this is not weight change. The weight distribution can only be moved by moving the COG.

I believe the reason this is important is that a weight distribution change would apply through the corner but the transient forces only happen at turn in.

Isn't it that the CoG moves because of inertia in the car?

[jh199]

Well, the c.o.g. of the car will stay the same. If anything, as the wheels raise with respect to the chassis, the c.o.g. of the car will raise too. But as the front end dips downwards, the c.o.g. moves down and slightly forwards with respect to the track surface. Within the car the c.o.g. remains the same but again, with respect to the ground plane, the c.o.g. moves towards the track. Also, because the rear wheels will stay at the same height, the rear wheels will become the pivot point of the car. So everything in front of the rear wheels will lower whilst the rear wheels remain at the same height. I believe this is what causes the weight distribution change.

And a side question...
"It is believed that Ferrari introduced the feature last year, quickly followed by Red Bull. Mercedes incorporated it into the design of this year’s W10 and it’s now being used by most of the other teams too."
Where did Ferrari, Red Bull and the others place this pivot? Within the upright? I cant find any photos showing this sort of pivot on the push rod of any other cars.

[henry]

Tech Tuesday (addresses Merc's front suspension):

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 3ZraL.html

"The latest front suspension geometries cleverly oblige the car’s nose to dive relative to the suspension when a lot of steering lock is used. This induces not only a weight distribution change towards the front that helps the tyre build up load more quickly, but also induces more ground effect from the front wing and nose underside."

• "As you can see from the video at the top of the page, the more steering lock is applied, the angle of the suspension arm relative to the rest of the suspension changes, effectively levering the front of the car down."
  
  "It is believed that Ferrari introduced the feature last year, quickly followed by Red Bull. Mercedes incorporated it into the design of this year’s W10 and it’s now being used by most of the other teams too."
  
  "It’s particularly ingenious in that it allows a solution to low-speed understeer without compromising rear stability in high-speed corners."

I can’t see how this makes a weight distribution change.

I would think there are some transient forces with energy supplied by the power steering mechanism and the change in height of the COG but this is not weight change. The weight distribution can only be moved by moving the COG.

I believe the reason this is important is that a weight distribution change would apply through the corner but the transient forces only happen at turn in.

Isn't it that the CoG moves because of inertia in the car?

Inertial effects change the force distribution due to forces applied to the car. For inertial force to be transferred from the rear to the front of the car would need to be decelerated. I don’t see how the steering mechanism does that.

In relation to the road the COG goes up and down due to suspension movement and front to back by tiny amounts due to changes in rake and road surface angle.

[dans79]

The cog would move forward when the nose drops down. Think of the center if gravity pivoting around the rear axle. As the nose goes down the cog would go down and forward relative to the ground. However the amount it moves forward is minuscule, do to the length of the wheelbase.

[LM10]

The suspension movement seems to be clearly more than 5 mm in the footage from Monaco. However, since Mercedes still uses this solution, it means the front of the car doesn’t move down more than 5 mm. So, if not solely for moving the front of the car down, what else are the reasons you want such a big suspension movement at high steering angles?

[richardn]

no more than 5mm lower at up to 12 degrees steering angle. Above 12 degrees steering angle, it can drop more as I understand it.

[LM10]

no more than 5mm lower at up to 12 degrees steering angle. Above 12 degrees steering angle, it can drop more as I understand it.

Here is what Whiting told in 2017:

We will therefore be asking you to provide us with all relevant documentation showing what effect steering has on the front ride height of your car and, in order to satisfy us that any effect is incidental, we believe that ride height should change by no more than 5.0mm when the steering wheel is moved from lock-to-lock.

Whilst some change is inevitable when the steering wheel is moved from lock-to-lock, we suspect that the effect of some systems was a far from incidental change of ride height.

We also believe that any non-incidental change of ride height is very likely to affect the aerodynamic performance of the car.

[richardn]

no more than 5mm lower at up to 12 degrees steering angle. Above 12 degrees steering angle, it can drop more as I understand it.

Here is what Whiting told in 2017:

We will therefore be asking you to provide us with all relevant documentation showing what effect steering has on the front ride height of your car and, in order to satisfy us that any effect is incidental, we believe that ride height should change by no more than 5.0mm when the steering wheel is moved from lock-to-lock.

Whilst some change is inevitable when the steering wheel is moved from lock-to-lock, we suspect that the effect of some systems was a far from incidental change of ride height.

We also believe that any non-incidental change of ride height is very likely to affect the aerodynamic performance of the car.

There's what he said and what is actually in the technical directive. The AMUS article quoted earlier states that it is measured at 12 degrees (with a diagram)

Remember that Monaco is very much an outlier and the 20 degree of steering lock used at the hairpin is much more than at any other circuit. 12 degrees is more steering angle than needed at most other circuits to follow the racing line.

[LM10]

no more than 5mm lower at up to 12 degrees steering angle. Above 12 degrees steering angle, it can drop more as I understand it.

Here is what Whiting told in 2017:

We will therefore be asking you to provide us with all relevant documentation showing what effect steering has on the front ride height of your car and, in order to satisfy us that any effect is incidental, we believe that ride height should change by no more than 5.0mm when the steering wheel is moved from lock-to-lock.

Whilst some change is inevitable when the steering wheel is moved from lock-to-lock, we suspect that the effect of some systems was a far from incidental change of ride height.

We also believe that any non-incidental change of ride height is very likely to affect the aerodynamic performance of the car.

There's what he said and what is actually in the technical directive. The AMUS article quoted earlier states that it is measured at 12 degrees (with a diagram)

Remember that Monaco is very much an outlier and the 20 degree of steering lock used at the hairpin is much more than at any other circuit. 12 degrees is more steering angle than needed at most other circuits to follow the racing line.

The AMuS article didn't quote anything. They just claimed that those figures (5 mm ride height change at 12 degree steering angle) were in the technical directives. I've looked into the regulations and searched for it, but couldn't find any numbers as to how the steering angle should influence the ride height. The only thing we have are the words of Charlie Whiting from 2017, but as long as they are not written down in the regulations, they are not of significance.

So, with the current information we have, it can be told that if the ride height of the Mercedes changed as much as the suspension movement indicates, it would not seem to comply with article 3.8, which says:

With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.6.8, any car
system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the
aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

But as I already told, Mercedes still uses this system, so maybe the amount of suspension movement we've seen in Monaco doesn't significantly move the front of the car down to gain aerodynamic performance. If so, I'm still interested in the answer of my initial question - which other benefits would such a suspension movement, without changing the ride height, have?

[Polite]

Here is what Whiting told in 2017:

There's what he said and what is actually in the technical directive. The AMUS article quoted earlier states that it is measured at 12 degrees (with a diagram)

Remember that Monaco is very much an outlier and the 20 degree of steering lock used at the hairpin is much more than at any other circuit. 12 degrees is more steering angle than needed at most other circuits to follow the racing line.

The AMuS article didn't quote anything. They just claimed that those figures (5 mm ride height change at 12 degree steering angle) were in the technical directives. I've looked into the regulations and searched for it, but couldn't find any numbers as to how the steering angle should influence the ride height. The only thing we have are the words of Charlie Whiting from 2017, but as long as they are not written down in the regulations, they are not of significance.

So, with the current information we have, it can be told that if the ride height of the Mercedes changed as much as the suspension movement indicates, it would not seem to comply with article 3.8, which says:

With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.6.8, any car
system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the
aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

But as I already told, Mercedes still uses this system, so maybe the amount of suspension movement we've seen in Monaco doesn't significantly move the front of the car down to gain aerodynamic performance. If so, I'm still interested in the answer of my initial question - which other benefits would such a suspension movement, without changing the ride height, have?

"TD -044", just find it

[One and Only]

This is not from lock to lock, but from neutral to lock. From lock to lock it could exceed 5mm limit.